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Any app reaching complexity of what’s being done on Java will look the same, no matter what platform do you choose. I haven’t yet seen large nodejs deployments

Any app reaching complexity of what’s being done on Java will look the same, no matter what platform do you choose. I haven’t yet seen large nodejs deployments with MLOCs and hundreds of developers, but I’m pretty sure it can easily become much bigger mess - the tools and the libraries are immature, there’s lack of enterprise SDLC patterns etc, which creates a lot of obstacles. Spring is becoming too enterprisey these days, that’s true, but it’s still fit for use in modern architectures - only if you understand how to utilize all of its capabilities.

tannhaeuser 8y ago
nodejs isn't a replacement for fat backends for sure, but it's working really well for a frontend-facing light backend where frontend developers can add endpoints as the need arises, such as for autocomplete functionality, and where first-party support for asset pipeline tools is desired. The Spring experience isn't bad for newbies creating "REST" microservice spaghetti to have something to show at the end of their agile day, but it gets seriously in your way if you're a seasoned dev and have a solid understanding of what you want to achieve in terms of network-exposed interfaces and integration with other apps.
- ivan_gammel 8y ago
  I‘m seasoned dev with 20 years of Java programming experience, I see no problems using Spring and I don’t see why anyone with similar experience would have any. It’s sometimes not obvious, how some things work, but it’s open source and the code is quite good to analyze, extend or replace.
  - jimbokun 8y ago
    "the code is quite good to analyze, extend or replace" But how do you even know what code to read when so much of the program's logic is in annotations and other kinds of action at a distance?
    - tannhaeuser 8y ago
      Exactly. For example, if you're (still) using Spring MVC, what gets called in your backend on a given action attribute in your JSP or Thymeleaf or whatever template, is expressed through your method signature and lots of annotations where the order of arguments matter eg. some magic attributes must come right after others. All you see in your debugger, though, is that your request hangs in some nested and chained handler and reflection monstrosity driven by annotations and who knows what. Took multiple developers a day or two to figure out, each on their own. It's not that Spring is badly coded or something, I just don't need these surprises and the magical thinking surrounding newbie Spring Boot projects.
      - ivan_gammel 8y ago
        Newbie can write bad code on any platform, but it‘s a short period of life of software developer - the problem of beginners is solved not by the tools they use, but through a reasonable composition of the team with sufficient number of experienced developers who can define the architecture and best practices.
        jimbokun 8y ago
        From what I can tell, the "bad" Spring code is the code following the recommended Best Practices, at least according to the tutorials that pop up in Google search results.
        ivan_gammel 8y ago
        There’s one “must read” tutorial - documentation on official Spring website. There’s also github account with lots of examples. It’s better to ignore the trash that comes from search results, because either it’s trivial or obsolete.
      - ptx 8y ago
        Another related surprising thing (as I'm currently learning Spring/Hibernate/etc.) is what happens when the Hibernate Validator library is missing at runtime: Nothing. All the carefully crafted validation annotations just don't do anything, no validation is performed, and there is no indication whatsoever of this.

tannhaeuser 8y ago

nodejs isn't a replacement for fat backends for sure, but it's working really well for a frontend-facing light backend where frontend developers can add endpoints as the need arises, such as for autocomplete functionality, and where first-party support for asset pipeline tools is desired. The Spring experience isn't bad for newbies creating "REST" microservice spaghetti to have something to show at the end of their agile day, but it gets seriously in your way if you're a seasoned dev and have a solid understanding of what you want to achieve in terms of network-exposed interfaces and integration with other apps.

ivan_gammel 8y ago
I‘m seasoned dev with 20 years of Java programming experience, I see no problems using Spring and I don’t see why anyone with similar experience would have any. It’s sometimes not obvious, how some things work, but it’s open source and the code is quite good to analyze, extend or replace.
- jimbokun 8y ago
  "the code is quite good to analyze, extend or replace" But how do you even know what code to read when so much of the program's logic is in annotations and other kinds of action at a distance?
  - tannhaeuser 8y ago
    Exactly. For example, if you're (still) using Spring MVC, what gets called in your backend on a given action attribute in your JSP or Thymeleaf or whatever template, is expressed through your method signature and lots of annotations where the order of arguments matter eg. some magic attributes must come right after others. All you see in your debugger, though, is that your request hangs in some nested and chained handler and reflection monstrosity driven by annotations and who knows what. Took multiple developers a day or two to figure out, each on their own. It's not that Spring is badly coded or something, I just don't need these surprises and the magical thinking surrounding newbie Spring Boot projects.
    - ivan_gammel 8y ago
      Newbie can write bad code on any platform, but it‘s a short period of life of software developer - the problem of beginners is solved not by the tools they use, but through a reasonable composition of the team with sufficient number of experienced developers who can define the architecture and best practices.
      - jimbokun 8y ago
        From what I can tell, the "bad" Spring code is the code following the recommended Best Practices, at least according to the tutorials that pop up in Google search results.
        ivan_gammel 8y ago
        There’s one “must read” tutorial - documentation on official Spring website. There’s also github account with lots of examples. It’s better to ignore the trash that comes from search results, because either it’s trivial or obsolete.
    - ptx 8y ago
      Another related surprising thing (as I'm currently learning Spring/Hibernate/etc.) is what happens when the Hibernate Validator library is missing at runtime: Nothing. All the carefully crafted validation annotations just don't do anything, no validation is performed, and there is no indication whatsoever of this.