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By this logic, we should "forget" all the go green initiatives because China (and Africa) are building a "Green Wall" to stop their respective deserts from wide

By this logic, we should "forget" all the go green initiatives because China (and Africa) are building a "Green Wall" to stop their respective deserts from widening. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/china-great-green-wall-gobi-tengger-desertification/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/china-great-gree... I say this is mainly about China because Africa has modified their green wall project and instead of planting billion trees from East coast to West coast, they are helping communities to thrive by planting trees and reviving land. China is crazy in this sense, there is a thick patch of shrubs that now border the Gobi desert and mainland China. By 2030 it'll be the largest manmade plantation on Earth. edit: 66 billion trees planted so far!

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
The trees planted in the Gobi in 2008 are already mostly dead because they couldn’t commit enough water resources to maintain the ones they carelessly selected. As a result, the Beijing dust storms that were gone since 2009 started coming back in 2015. Whenever the Chinese government does something, don’t assume it will be sustainable by default.
- tomnm 8y ago
  Source?
  - ehmish 8y ago
    It's mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-North_Shelter_Forest_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-North_Shelter_Forest_Pro..., but the cited reference to it is in "The Epoch Times", which from what I've seen has quite an ideological bent against china, so I'd take it with a grain of salt
  - Flollop 8y ago
    https://e360.yale.edu/features/chinas_reforestation_programs_big_success_or_just_an_illusion https://e360.yale.edu/features/chinas_reforestation_programs... Not only that, there are concerns around lack of biodiversity in the trees being planted: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160907125303.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160907125303.h...
    - sdrothrock 8y ago
      I've often wondered if those programs would eventually lead to widespread allergies developing among the population due to the rapid increase in a single kind of pollen, like Japanese hay fever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hay_fever_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hay_fever_in_Japan
    - macleginn 8y ago
      It is a common concern with reforestation, it seems: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/this-is-load-of-crap-forestry-miles-upon-miles-of-it-everything-is-dead-in-there-1.3825661 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/this-is-load-of-...
      - paganel 8y ago
        It is a problem with reforestation since its very beginning, not sure why China is singled out here for repeating the West’s mistakes.
        benj111 8y ago
        Is China getting singled out? The West tried it, not knowing because it had never been done before, and found it had issues. I would expect the West to be criticised as much, if not more so for doing the same thing today.
        paganel 8y ago
        It looked like a surprise for some posters here, yeah, they seem to didn’t know that the same has been happening in the West since as early as the late 1700s-early 1800s and I’d say it’s still happening. The West is not being criticized as much as it should today for repeating the same mistake it has been doing again and again for almost two centuries now. Later edit: This forest which got knocked out during a recent wind-storm in the Italian Dolomites [1] looks like being an "artificial" one, at least judging by how the remaining trees all look the same and are almost geometrically positioned. The article does indeed say that the forest was "centuries-old" but I think that only better underlines what I was saying, that the West has been repeating the same and same mistake (i.e. "dumb", non-thought out reforestation) for centuries now. It's too bad that with the recent climate-related changes our tampering with the ecosystem is really shown for what it is: a really, really dumb and non-thought out action. [1] https://www.italymagazine.com/news/storms-italys-dolomites-raze-centuries-old-forests https://www.italymagazine.com/news/storms-italys-dolomites-r...
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    It actually says as much in the article linked by grand parent, but I also remember reading about it a few years ago in china daily or globaltimes (probably the latter), so it has been brought up in the Chinese press as well. Anecdotally as well: I was living in Beijing during the entire time period and noticed the dust storms going away and then coming back. Fun story: Beijing kids are all required to plant trees on school organized trips (which they must also pay to plant). So they go to places in the hinterland that are designated for tree planting, and plant their trees. After each school group leaves, the trees are promptly dug out so they can be planted by the next group of kids.
    - schuke 8y ago
      I remember reading a Caixin article that says the plant they use in the north to fight desertification actually causes massive allergy to the population that are traditionally pretty healthy.
    - MisterTea 8y ago
      > After each school group leaves, the trees are promptly dug out so they can be planted by the next group of kids. Green theater.
  - austincheney 8y ago
    As a blanket rule I down vote any comment that asks for a source without providing anything of value to the conversation. If you want a source go look for one or claim you had looked for one and could not find it.
m0zg 8y ago
> 66 billion trees planted so far News in 10-20 years: massive wildfires decimate Africa. It's pointless and dangerous to have more trees than the waterbed can support. California re-learns this lesson nearly every year.
- Sabinus 8y ago
  I assume there were many more trees in the same watershed before man chopped them down for pasture and cities.
  - m0zg 8y ago
    Yes, and they burned quite readily and frequently without harming humans. But humans have this peculiar aversion to dying in a fire, and they use tons of groundwater for themselves and for irrigation as well.
  - jaegerpicker 8y ago
    Sure, but there was a lot more available water in the watershed then also. Agriculture in a lot of ways has been the biggest ecological disaster this planet has ever seen. Man has redirected and pushed water out of nearly every watershed on the planet vastly changing what biome a area can support. I say that fully aware of the benefits that Agriculture has allowed human society, I wouldn't change it if I could in the past but I deeply hope we figure out a way to co-exist with nature in a less destructive way.
    - magduf 8y ago
      We need to switch to just growing our plant food indoors, using hydroponics. It's much more efficient with water than outdoor irrigation, and can be done vertically so it doesn't take up so much land.
- pestaa 8y ago
  How is wildfire automatically a bigger threat with more trees? Is it because with more trees given the same quantity of water, the drier wood helps the fire spreads more quickly? Or perhaps the forest is more densely populated? But that doesn't increase the vulnerable area. Pardon my ignorance, I'd like to know more.
01100011 8y ago
If all you really want to do is sequester the sand, why not deploy some large solar concentrators to roam the desert and fuse the sand into larger grains? It would obviously take a while, but you could have relatively unintelligent, solar powered drones just gliding over the sand and sticking it to itself. Bonus if you can figure out how to fuse the sand into bricks, or 3d print walls of fused sand. This guy sort of proved it in concept: https://vimeo.com/25401444 https://vimeo.com/25401444
fiblye 8y ago
Wait, what logic says we should give up everything just because China planted some trees?
johnchristopher 8y ago
From all the comments under your post I can totally be confident teraforming is an option if we ever need to get off the planet. /s (as in /sarcasm and /scared)
tim333 8y ago
I don't think the article says anything about we should "forget" EVs because China does good busses. If anything it might inspire some more electric busses in the west.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

The trees planted in the Gobi in 2008 are already mostly dead because they couldn’t commit enough water resources to maintain the ones they carelessly selected. As a result, the Beijing dust storms that were gone since 2009 started coming back in 2015. Whenever the Chinese government does something, don’t assume it will be sustainable by default.

tomnm 8y ago
Source?
- ehmish 8y ago
  It's mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-North_Shelter_Forest_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-North_Shelter_Forest_Pro..., but the cited reference to it is in "The Epoch Times", which from what I've seen has quite an ideological bent against china, so I'd take it with a grain of salt
- Flollop 8y ago
  https://e360.yale.edu/features/chinas_reforestation_programs_big_success_or_just_an_illusion https://e360.yale.edu/features/chinas_reforestation_programs... Not only that, there are concerns around lack of biodiversity in the trees being planted: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160907125303.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160907125303.h...
  - sdrothrock 8y ago
    I've often wondered if those programs would eventually lead to widespread allergies developing among the population due to the rapid increase in a single kind of pollen, like Japanese hay fever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hay_fever_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hay_fever_in_Japan
  - macleginn 8y ago
    It is a common concern with reforestation, it seems: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/this-is-load-of-crap-forestry-miles-upon-miles-of-it-everything-is-dead-in-there-1.3825661 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/this-is-load-of-...
    - paganel 8y ago
      It is a problem with reforestation since its very beginning, not sure why China is singled out here for repeating the West’s mistakes.
      - benj111 8y ago
        Is China getting singled out? The West tried it, not knowing because it had never been done before, and found it had issues. I would expect the West to be criticised as much, if not more so for doing the same thing today.
        paganel 8y ago
        It looked like a surprise for some posters here, yeah, they seem to didn’t know that the same has been happening in the West since as early as the late 1700s-early 1800s and I’d say it’s still happening. The West is not being criticized as much as it should today for repeating the same mistake it has been doing again and again for almost two centuries now. Later edit: This forest which got knocked out during a recent wind-storm in the Italian Dolomites [1] looks like being an "artificial" one, at least judging by how the remaining trees all look the same and are almost geometrically positioned. The article does indeed say that the forest was "centuries-old" but I think that only better underlines what I was saying, that the West has been repeating the same and same mistake (i.e. "dumb", non-thought out reforestation) for centuries now. It's too bad that with the recent climate-related changes our tampering with the ecosystem is really shown for what it is: a really, really dumb and non-thought out action. [1] https://www.italymagazine.com/news/storms-italys-dolomites-raze-centuries-old-forests https://www.italymagazine.com/news/storms-italys-dolomites-r...
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  It actually says as much in the article linked by grand parent, but I also remember reading about it a few years ago in china daily or globaltimes (probably the latter), so it has been brought up in the Chinese press as well. Anecdotally as well: I was living in Beijing during the entire time period and noticed the dust storms going away and then coming back. Fun story: Beijing kids are all required to plant trees on school organized trips (which they must also pay to plant). So they go to places in the hinterland that are designated for tree planting, and plant their trees. After each school group leaves, the trees are promptly dug out so they can be planted by the next group of kids.
  - schuke 8y ago
    I remember reading a Caixin article that says the plant they use in the north to fight desertification actually causes massive allergy to the population that are traditionally pretty healthy.
  - MisterTea 8y ago
    > After each school group leaves, the trees are promptly dug out so they can be planted by the next group of kids. Green theater.
- austincheney 8y ago
  As a blanket rule I down vote any comment that asks for a source without providing anything of value to the conversation. If you want a source go look for one or claim you had looked for one and could not find it.

m0zg 8y ago

> 66 billion trees planted so far News in 10-20 years: massive wildfires decimate Africa. It's pointless and dangerous to have more trees than the waterbed can support. California re-learns this lesson nearly every year.

Sabinus 8y ago
I assume there were many more trees in the same watershed before man chopped them down for pasture and cities.
- m0zg 8y ago
  Yes, and they burned quite readily and frequently without harming humans. But humans have this peculiar aversion to dying in a fire, and they use tons of groundwater for themselves and for irrigation as well.
- jaegerpicker 8y ago
  Sure, but there was a lot more available water in the watershed then also. Agriculture in a lot of ways has been the biggest ecological disaster this planet has ever seen. Man has redirected and pushed water out of nearly every watershed on the planet vastly changing what biome a area can support. I say that fully aware of the benefits that Agriculture has allowed human society, I wouldn't change it if I could in the past but I deeply hope we figure out a way to co-exist with nature in a less destructive way.
  - magduf 8y ago
    We need to switch to just growing our plant food indoors, using hydroponics. It's much more efficient with water than outdoor irrigation, and can be done vertically so it doesn't take up so much land.
pestaa 8y ago
How is wildfire automatically a bigger threat with more trees? Is it because with more trees given the same quantity of water, the drier wood helps the fire spreads more quickly? Or perhaps the forest is more densely populated? But that doesn't increase the vulnerable area. Pardon my ignorance, I'd like to know more.

01100011 8y ago

If all you really want to do is sequester the sand, why not deploy some large solar concentrators to roam the desert and fuse the sand into larger grains? It would obviously take a while, but you could have relatively unintelligent, solar powered drones just gliding over the sand and sticking it to itself. Bonus if you can figure out how to fuse the sand into bricks, or 3d print walls of fused sand. This guy sort of proved it in concept: https://vimeo.com/25401444 https://vimeo.com/25401444

fiblye 8y ago

Wait, what logic says we should give up everything just because China planted some trees?

johnchristopher 8y ago

From all the comments under your post I can totally be confident teraforming is an option if we ever need to get off the planet. /s (as in /sarcasm and /scared)

tim333 8y ago

I don't think the article says anything about we should "forget" EVs because China does good busses. If anything it might inspire some more electric busses in the west.