5 ms·

This points out a new opportunity. Why stop at China for electric busses (yes they are probably manufacturing them locally)? Cities are seeming increasingly mo

This points out a new opportunity. Why stop at China for electric busses (yes they are probably manufacturing them locally)? Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. Game for those playing at home, do a search on what make of buses are used in your home city. Search for if that manufacturer is trialing electric buses. Interested to see what you find.

jonwachob91 8y ago
The City of Orlando has had electric buses since 2017[0] https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/08/17/orlandos-first-all-electric-lymmo-buses-launch-this-friday https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/08/17/orla...
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
The opposite is occurring in places like Seattle. The overhead electric trolley lines are coming down as batteries become good enough to support electric buses without the PITA of going off line (electric was already needed for many routes in Seattle because of hills). Electric also makes more sense in Seattle because 70% of its electrify comes from hydro.
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  What route has been de-eletrified? IIRC Seattle made a big push to invest in the overhead catenary system just a few years ago, as the neighborhoods that have overhead catenary wires were in a frenzy over the mere suggestion that they'd be retired. The overhead lines do force King County Metro to avoid changing routes (a boon for local riders), and are 50% faster at getting the bus up to speed after a stop. Short of something wrecking the overhead lines on most of a route, I doubt they'll be retired soon.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Ya, I thought they were moving away from it, but it turns out they are improving overhead lines by combining it with battery tech to allow for better performance (less chance of unhooking at greater speeds using batteries to fill in gaps at intersections). See the new first hill street car: https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2015/05/04/first-hill-street-car-testing-moving-along/ https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2015/05/04/first-hill-street-ca...
- masklinn 8y ago
  > The opposite is occurring in places like Seattle. The overhead electric trolley lines are coming down as batteries become good enough to support electric buses without the PITA of going off line (electric was already needed for many routes in Seattle because of hills). A good option (which is being implemented in Lyon) is IMC buses, battery-supplemented trolleys (or electric buses with pantographs): they can go off-grid for segments where the grid hasn't been built (not enough traffic or whatever) and it allows for spot-charging at bus stops.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Ya, the new first hill trolley is sort of like that already. Seattle used to have a lot of dual electric diesel buses that would be diesel outside of the downtown bus tunnel and then catch onto overhead lines before entering the tunnel. However, this didn’t really work out very well (hooking up to overhead wires was error prone). They just use NG buses these days
dzhiurgis 8y ago
Problem is cities want to super-customise their buses kicking the cost probably 3x
- BubRoss 8y ago
  Do you have a source for that?
- dalbasal 8y ago
  More than they want to customize ICE buses?
bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
Dallas seems to be taking some steps. [1] [1] https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/dallas-deploys-electric-bus-fleet/527707/ https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/dallas-deploys-electric...
bobthepanda 8y ago
Initial indicators seem to be that they're not ready for prime time. Albuquerque returned BYD buses because of problems with range not performing as advertised. https://www.abqjournal.com/1246094/abq-rejecting-all-byd-art-buses-switching-to-non-electric.html https://www.abqjournal.com/1246094/abq-rejecting-all-byd-art... Battery-electrics still have major issues with range; buses cannot last a full day on a single charge, and midday charging takes too long. And if it gets cold or the route has hills, you're completely out of luck. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-battery-recharge-new-flyer-byd-proterra-beb/577954/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-...
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque), and have been for a very long time. The only thing is now instead of using overhead lines, batteries can be used instead.
  - StudentStuff 8y ago
    The comparison of how much faster our electrified trolley busses here in hilly Seattle compared to traditional busses is pretty stark, the instant, linear torque is really hard to come close to equaling with a combustion engine. eBikes with mid-drive motors like the BBSHD also have this kind of torque, it can be really fun to ride them due to that. With electric motors, you choose between torque and top RPMs based on how thick your wire is, the thicker the copper the more torque you'll see (and consequently, lower top speed).
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      It is a combination of electric and rubber. Even tram/light rail lines use that combo (eg Lausanne’s M2).
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      A city bus (regardless of ICE vs EV) is limited in acceleration by what the manufacturer thinks people will tolerate (a city probably won't buy your bus if their limited trial results in people complaining about getting tossed around) so you get an electronic throttle with some fine tuning on top. Pretty much every modern vehicle has this. The EV manufacturer probably tunes their electronic nanny to give you more torque right away because "muh torque" is a selling point and they want the city reps taking a test ride on the bus to feel that.
fabianhjr 8y ago
> Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. > Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. This is known as Libertarian Municipalism. ( https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Murray_Bookchin#/Libertarian_municipalism https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Murray_Bookchin#/Libertarian_mun... ) A small book on the matter: http://new-compass.net/sites/new-compass.net/files/Bookchin%27s%20Social%20Ecology%20and%20Communalism.pdf http://new-compass.net/sites/new-compass.net/files/Bookchin%...
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Cool. I'm glad this idea has a name. I've often thought that higher level politics are really untouchable by the average person because: candidates tend to be chosen by large parties either through appointment or proxy voting, changes made made by the politician are hard to measure because they are often made in places where the voter doesn't reside, policy is determined by the party (and enforced by a "whip") meaning that voters are forced to vote for specific parties rather than the best candidate, etc, etc. Municipal level politics usually has far fewer roadblocks and is much more visible to the average person. Using that to leverage larger changes seems like a doable process.
andyjh 8y ago
Milton Keynes has had electric buses since 2014, which top up their batteries via induction chargers at the end of each route throughout the day: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25621426 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25621426 http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wirelessly-charged-electric-buses/ http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wir... The number of buses is set to increase after the initial successful trial: https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/more-electric-buses-on-their-way-after-successful-funding-bid-by-milton-keynes-council-1-7493084 https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/more-electric-buses-on-t...
- jdietrich 8y ago
  MK is a bit of a joke in Britain, but it's easily our most innovative town. https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/model-town-plans-next-steps-beyond-uk-autonomous-car-project https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sel... http://telecoms.com/487246/milton-keynes-set-to-be-first-uk-gigabit-city/ http://telecoms.com/487246/milton-keynes-set-to-be-first-uk-...
- joncrane 8y ago
  Isn't Milton Keynes where the McLaren Technology Centre is? (McLaren are a Formula 1 team and supercar manufacturer)
dalbasal 8y ago
Here is the right framing of this article. It's a pity the title needs to troll tesla, Musk or EV haters/lovers to make it's (newsworthy) argument. The point of comparison is useful though: 33 cars = 1 bus. I am actually going to email local polticians today. My back-of-the-envelope is that in in my city, converting the bus fleet is equal to converting 1/3 of the private vehicle fleet. They are spending a lot here on plans that don't have a tenth of that potential. Ireland (where I live) has missed its emmissions target. We're already paying penalties and the current "plan" to get better fast is a huge (>40%) subsidy for €50k executive perk cars, on top of standard EV incentives. Using this article's bus/EV fuel savings ratio (33/1), you have about 33€20k = €660,000 per bus* in your "better than this terrible plan" budget. From the comments, it seems that e-buses aren't at the "just buy some and done" point. But (like you imply), buses have all sorts of advantages over cars that make this a great target for meaningful short term improvement. As you say, plans can be implemented by cities. Local politicians talking about private EVs is mostly cheap talk. They can't do much about it. Buses are a decision they make. Also, fuel cost savings are achieved rapidly as buses work full time. You're not paying now for fuel savings in 12 years. Charging infrastructure can be centralized. As specialized utlilitarian vehicles, buses can make all sorts of compromises. Some routes don't need fast buses. It seems downright rational.

jonwachob91 8y ago

The City of Orlando has had electric buses since 2017[0] https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/08/17/orlandos-first-all-electric-lymmo-buses-launch-this-friday https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/08/17/orla...

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

The opposite is occurring in places like Seattle. The overhead electric trolley lines are coming down as batteries become good enough to support electric buses without the PITA of going off line (electric was already needed for many routes in Seattle because of hills). Electric also makes more sense in Seattle because 70% of its electrify comes from hydro.

StudentStuff 8y ago
What route has been de-eletrified? IIRC Seattle made a big push to invest in the overhead catenary system just a few years ago, as the neighborhoods that have overhead catenary wires were in a frenzy over the mere suggestion that they'd be retired. The overhead lines do force King County Metro to avoid changing routes (a boon for local riders), and are 50% faster at getting the bus up to speed after a stop. Short of something wrecking the overhead lines on most of a route, I doubt they'll be retired soon.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Ya, I thought they were moving away from it, but it turns out they are improving overhead lines by combining it with battery tech to allow for better performance (less chance of unhooking at greater speeds using batteries to fill in gaps at intersections). See the new first hill street car: https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2015/05/04/first-hill-street-car-testing-moving-along/ https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2015/05/04/first-hill-street-ca...
masklinn 8y ago
> The opposite is occurring in places like Seattle. The overhead electric trolley lines are coming down as batteries become good enough to support electric buses without the PITA of going off line (electric was already needed for many routes in Seattle because of hills). A good option (which is being implemented in Lyon) is IMC buses, battery-supplemented trolleys (or electric buses with pantographs): they can go off-grid for segments where the grid hasn't been built (not enough traffic or whatever) and it allows for spot-charging at bus stops.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Ya, the new first hill trolley is sort of like that already. Seattle used to have a lot of dual electric diesel buses that would be diesel outside of the downtown bus tunnel and then catch onto overhead lines before entering the tunnel. However, this didn’t really work out very well (hooking up to overhead wires was error prone). They just use NG buses these days

dzhiurgis 8y ago

Problem is cities want to super-customise their buses kicking the cost probably 3x

BubRoss 8y ago
Do you have a source for that?
dalbasal 8y ago
More than they want to customize ICE buses?

bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago

Dallas seems to be taking some steps. [1] [1] https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/dallas-deploys-electric-bus-fleet/527707/ https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/dallas-deploys-electric...

bobthepanda 8y ago

Initial indicators seem to be that they're not ready for prime time. Albuquerque returned BYD buses because of problems with range not performing as advertised. https://www.abqjournal.com/1246094/abq-rejecting-all-byd-art-buses-switching-to-non-electric.html https://www.abqjournal.com/1246094/abq-rejecting-all-byd-art... Battery-electrics still have major issues with range; buses cannot last a full day on a single charge, and midday charging takes too long. And if it gets cold or the route has hills, you're completely out of luck. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-battery-recharge-new-flyer-byd-proterra-beb/577954/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/01/electric-bus-...

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Hills are the primary use case for electric buses already (electric has much better torque), and have been for a very long time. The only thing is now instead of using overhead lines, batteries can be used instead.
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  The comparison of how much faster our electrified trolley busses here in hilly Seattle compared to traditional busses is pretty stark, the instant, linear torque is really hard to come close to equaling with a combustion engine. eBikes with mid-drive motors like the BBSHD also have this kind of torque, it can be really fun to ride them due to that. With electric motors, you choose between torque and top RPMs based on how thick your wire is, the thicker the copper the more torque you'll see (and consequently, lower top speed).
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    It is a combination of electric and rubber. Even tram/light rail lines use that combo (eg Lausanne’s M2).
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    A city bus (regardless of ICE vs EV) is limited in acceleration by what the manufacturer thinks people will tolerate (a city probably won't buy your bus if their limited trial results in people complaining about getting tossed around) so you get an electronic throttle with some fine tuning on top. Pretty much every modern vehicle has this. The EV manufacturer probably tunes their electronic nanny to give you more torque right away because "muh torque" is a selling point and they want the city reps taking a test ride on the bus to feel that.

fabianhjr 8y ago

> Cities are seeming increasingly more able to be proactive than countries. > Encourage local cities to one by one electrify the bus network and this effect goes global. It’s obvious tangible action that citizens can demand and mayors can visibly deliver. This is known as Libertarian Municipalism. ( https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Murray_Bookchin#/Libertarian_municipalism https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Murray_Bookchin#/Libertarian_mun... ) A small book on the matter: http://new-compass.net/sites/new-compass.net/files/Bookchin%27s%20Social%20Ecology%20and%20Communalism.pdf http://new-compass.net/sites/new-compass.net/files/Bookchin%...

mikekchar 8y ago
Cool. I'm glad this idea has a name. I've often thought that higher level politics are really untouchable by the average person because: candidates tend to be chosen by large parties either through appointment or proxy voting, changes made made by the politician are hard to measure because they are often made in places where the voter doesn't reside, policy is determined by the party (and enforced by a "whip") meaning that voters are forced to vote for specific parties rather than the best candidate, etc, etc. Municipal level politics usually has far fewer roadblocks and is much more visible to the average person. Using that to leverage larger changes seems like a doable process.

andyjh 8y ago

Milton Keynes has had electric buses since 2014, which top up their batteries via induction chargers at the end of each route throughout the day: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25621426 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25621426 http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wirelessly-charged-electric-buses/ http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/milton-keynes-wir... The number of buses is set to increase after the initial successful trial: https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/more-electric-buses-on-their-way-after-successful-funding-bid-by-milton-keynes-council-1-7493084 https://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/more-electric-buses-on-t...

jdietrich 8y ago
MK is a bit of a joke in Britain, but it's easily our most innovative town. https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/model-town-plans-next-steps-beyond-uk-autonomous-car-project https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sel... http://telecoms.com/487246/milton-keynes-set-to-be-first-uk-gigabit-city/ http://telecoms.com/487246/milton-keynes-set-to-be-first-uk-...
joncrane 8y ago
Isn't Milton Keynes where the McLaren Technology Centre is? (McLaren are a Formula 1 team and supercar manufacturer)

dalbasal 8y ago

Here is the right framing of this article. It's a pity the title needs to troll tesla, Musk or EV haters/lovers to make it's (newsworthy) argument. The point of comparison is useful though: 33 cars = 1 bus. I am actually going to email local polticians today. My back-of-the-envelope is that in in my city, converting the bus fleet is equal to converting 1/3 of the private vehicle fleet. They are spending a lot here on plans that don't have a tenth of that potential. Ireland (where I live) has missed its emmissions target. We're already paying penalties and the current "plan" to get better fast is a huge (>40%) subsidy for €50k executive perk cars, on top of standard EV incentives. Using this article's bus/EV fuel savings ratio (33/1), you have about 33€20k = €660,000 per bus* in your "better than this terrible plan" budget. From the comments, it seems that e-buses aren't at the "just buy some and done" point. But (like you imply), buses have all sorts of advantages over cars that make this a great target for meaningful short term improvement. As you say, plans can be implemented by cities. Local politicians talking about private EVs is mostly cheap talk. They can't do much about it. Buses are a decision they make. Also, fuel cost savings are achieved rapidly as buses work full time. You're not paying now for fuel savings in 12 years. Charging infrastructure can be centralized. As specialized utlilitarian vehicles, buses can make all sorts of compromises. Some routes don't need fast buses. It seems downright rational.