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5-MeO-DMT Associated with Improvements in Depression, Anxiety

206 points by EndXA 8y ago

dawhizkid 8y ago
As soon as I can I will invest all my money in companies productizing therapeutic psychedelics...
- abyssin 8y ago
  Not sure there's much money to be made there, as many of the psychedelic compounds are both cheap to produce and unpatented.
  - temp129838 8y ago
    Look at Ketamine...just make some trivial change with no impact to the active part of the chemical and you can patent it.
    - wbrasky 8y ago
      Why on earth would someone use an expensive, patent-encumbered drug when there's regular Ketamine that can do the same thing?
      - temp129838 8y ago
        It's the racket of big pharma. Ketamine isn't approved for the treatment of depression but Johnson & Johnson's patented Esketamine is. If you want to go the legal route that is your only option. Depending on how much your insurance plan covers you, as a patient, might only pay a fixed copay with your insurance covering the rest, so you might not actually "feel" the $7k price tag at all. The real scam that has played out over the last few decades though is that as employer insurance costs rise wage growth has slowed. We've all been paying for rising insurance costs even if we don't necessarily feel it.
        EamonnMR 8y ago
        It's really a form of regulatory capture and goes way beyond drugs into medical devices, IT systems, etc. The "approved" thing is often a more expensive, less complete/reliable/modern version of something people who aren't subject to regulation can get off the shelf. You can think of it sort of like if car dealerships managed to get a law passed that said you can only service your car at the dealership, and then 10x'd their prices.
      - drewmol 8y ago
        Because the penalties for unauthorized possession in the US range from (up to) 6 months to 8 years with fines up to $25,000 varying by state and the only way to acquire it in an authorized manor restricts it's prescribed usage to a narrow scope of conditions, the treatment of depression not included.
- 50656E6973 8y ago
  It's sure to be a money loser compared to other addictive psychiatric drugs which are taken daily as a maintenance to the problem. Drugs like DMT should only be taken once in a blue moon, are not addictive, and are extremely cheap to produce.
  - ddorian43 8y ago
    Which psychiatric drug is addictive ?
    - 50656E6973 8y ago
      Xanax is one. Many anti depressants can have severe withdrawal effects as well, though I suppose that is more indicative of dependency rather than addiction.
      - ddorian43 8y ago
        Yes, but xanax is only used short term I think. Withdrawal isn't the same as addicting, no ?
        goldmouth 8y ago
        Wrong again, Xanax is prescribed for years at a time. Many people go decades taking a few mg of Xanax a day.
        DanBC 8y ago
        In the US. In eg the UK it's somewhat difficult to get xanax, but similar meds should only be used short term. https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/alprazolam.html https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/alprazolam.html > Avoid prolonged use (and abrupt withdrawal thereafter); debilitated patients (reduce dose) (in adults); elderly (reduce dose) (in adults); history of alcohol dependence or abuse; history of drug dependence or abuse; myasthenia gravis; personality disorder (within the fearful group—dependent, avoidant, obsessive-compulsive) may increase risk of dependence; respiratory disease https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs53/chapter/Quality-statement-3-Pharmacological-treatment https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs53/chapter/Quality-statem... > NICE guidance provides recommendations on pharmacological therapies for anxiety disorders. Benzodiazepines are associated with tolerance and dependence, and antipsychotics are associated with a number of adverse effects. Therefore they should not be used routinely to treat anxiety disorders. > Healthcare professionals should be aware of circumstances in which benzodiazepines and antipsychotics may be appropriate, such as short-term care and anxiety disorder crises. Here's a website showing that alprazolam is not prescribed in the community: https://openprescribing.net/analyse/#org=CCG&numIds=0401020A0&denom=nothing&selectedTab=summary https://openprescribing.net/analyse/#org=CCG&numIds=0401020A...
- natalyarostova 8y ago
  Only to promptly lose it when it's blanket-banned because a 15 year old got his hands on some, and then committed suicide in the midst of a paranoid hallucination. (fwiw I think it should be legal too)
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
Did the study clarify whether the effects were long-lasting, or were the psychedelic drugs simply a momentary distraction?
- temp129838 8y ago
  From my experience, especially with psilocybin (shrooms), the main benefit is not hallocinogenic at all (at a ~2g or so dose) but that it has the effect of basically forcing you to confront all the emotional pain that you bury and ignore. I always end up laugh-crying and experiencing revelations about myself, my relationship etc that I simply don't have otherwise. I can see how effective it can be when taken while in therapy because you basically force yourself to open up. It's a truth serum, of sorts. I have not tried DMT but my understanding of ayahuasca (active ingredient is DMT) retreats in places like Peru is that it's like "10 years of therapy in a week."
  - wutbrodo 8y ago
    Your first paragraph is exactly how I describe it to people. I'm a big proponent of LSD, but only to those that I think are intelligent enough to make a considered choice[1], and always with caveat that it involves a temporary lapse in your ability to shove things down into your subconscious that you'd rather not deal with. The implication is that if you feel like you're not currently ready to throw open that door and take an honest look at your issues, then it's likely not yet for you. [1] I know this is unavoidably derisive, but I mean this in the most mundane way possible. Some people I know can read the literature & integrate other sources of data (including anecdotal data and cautious experimentation) and come out with a best-effort understanding of the science that's far superior to the blunter recommendations and laws that are the start and end of most people's investigations. The latter play an important role, since most people just don't have the critical thinking or epistemological skills to integrate a big messy pile of data saying contradictory things with different types and quality of source. This goes for everything from psychedelics to nutrition to interpreting your blood test results.
  - pantalaimon 8y ago
    While I agree, I think it has to be noted that those revelations have a tendency to get eroded by everyday life. It sure is no panacea, but it can be the first step.
Moodles 8y ago
I’ve taken psychedelics a few times. Sometimes, it’s just been mild and giggling at colors and nature. Pleasant, but just kind of a fun drug. Sometimes it’s been just extremely confusing and not at all fun, to the extent that I’d forget my own name or what I’ve taken and basically just all memories. It’s very frustrating to be in that state, constantly trying not to fly away but not able to ground yourself. It’s a little disturbing, but not horrific. Sometimes though, it’s been a truly beautiful, enlightening experience. I still think of it sometimes. It’s very difficult to really explain in words, but it feels like kind of extreme empathy with all life. Buddhists would call it going egoless. I just felt very at peace: we all live, we all die, and it’s all okay. I’m not particularly religious or spiritual at all but that experience really changed me a bit, I still think of it. It feels like a shortcut to enlightenment that usually takes a lifetime of meditation, albeit short-lasting. To really get it permanently, you probably have to meditate a lot. It was amazing. It feels like life is in all these different forms, and you just happen to be one variation of it, but you could easily be any other living thing, so you just feel love and empathy for all life. And you know it’s finite and you’re not afraid of death. I would still attempt to avoid death, but I was just at peace with it if it was inevitable. I think it’s a shame psychedelics get put in the same category as other drugs in the law and in people’s heads. It’s not at all the same as heroin, meth, cocaine. Not at all. I think on balance they should probably be legal, but I can easily imagine someone with mental illness struggling with mushrooms so I’m glad John Hopkins is doing these studies. It does seem like the therapeutic affects are long-lasting, and it’s not like you can overdose on them. The worst that can happen is you do something stupid while on them. However if the dose is so strong, you probably wouldn’t be able to move much anyway. Edit: a lot of replies to this post seem to talk about LSD. I was actually talking about mushrooms. I've only taken LSD once. Maybe the distinction matters.
- ta1234567890 8y ago
  You might enjoy reading the book How to Change your Mind by Michael Pollan. It describes exactly what you are saying, has lots of different testimonials and has a great overview of the whole psychedelic therapy research world going from the 50s all the way to now.
- umvi 8y ago
aaaaaaaaaaab 8y ago
Contact: dr. Elf Machine MD
- cliffwarden 8y ago
  https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BaggyGaseousAgouti-max-1mb.gif https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BaggyGaseousAgouti-max-1mb.gif
- cpeterso 8y ago
  See https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf
simonsaidit 8y ago
Said this for years nothing is as powerfull as dmt/hamalas .. I’ve seen a dusin times how it changed the life of someone myself included with a single trip you could live on it for years.
hirundo 8y ago
> Righteous outrage isn't just an addictive drug, it's a hallucinogen. - Elijah William Eby Although equating outrage with a drug is a metaphor it seems to me to be a strong one. No doubt its effects are mediated by neurotransmitters as are directly chemical hallucinogens. Yet outrage seems to generally enhance depression and anxiety. Maybe that's because hallucinations caused by outrage feel more like simple perceptions of reality, and it's depressing that reality is so outrageous. Whereas chemically induced hallucinations can more easily be discounted.
tayo42 8y ago
Is there significance to the 5-meo-dmt? It seems close to dmt, 4-ho-dmt, and some of the research chems like 4-aco-dmt?
- Alex3917 8y ago
  Completely different. James Oroc wrote a book on it, and there are also a bunch of YouTube videos of him talking about the differences between DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. https://www.amazon.com/Tryptamine-Palace-5-MeO-DMT-Sonoran-Desert/dp/1594772991 https://www.amazon.com/Tryptamine-Palace-5-MeO-DMT-Sonoran-D... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=james+oroc https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=james+oroc
  - simonsaidit 8y ago
    His explanation sounds more like Changa than 5-meo-dmt... i never had it last as long as he describes or seen others and Ive Been assistent with hundreds of trips . Only changa would last 45min to a little over an hour. Pure DMT and 5-meo-dmt perhaps 25 min if lucky.
- mirceal 8y ago
  it’s close to dmt in the sense that part of it’s structure is DMT. as far as effects, if you believe the literature: dmt is like sailing into the sunset and 5meo is like stapping yourself to a rocket. both give you something, but radically different
  - simonsaidit 8y ago
    Both have a Quick onset... id say a rocket. With changa eg + hamalas its more slow onset but more powerfull. Someone described 5-meo-dmt to me as power/maskoline and changa as love/feminine and i have the same feeling about it.
  - chess93 8y ago
    More like sailing in to the sun :)
Alex3917 8y ago
This is an interesting survey result, but given that 5-MeO-DMT can cause sudden cardiac arrest I doubt this will ever go to clinical trials.
- loceng 8y ago
  Citation? Curious also how this compares to other classes of medications.
  - collyw 8y ago
    Erowid doesn't mention any of that. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt_death.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt_death.sht...
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    James Oroc talks about it in his book / interviews. There are a couple churches that use 5-MeO-DMT as a sacrament, but I think they have a defibrillator and someone with medical training on hand. I don't think it's excessively dangerous if you have good cardiovascular fitness and are able to accurately dose it, but it's still substantially more dangerous than something like DMT. There is/was a church called Temple of Awakening Divinity (TOAD), and there are some interviews with the founder online.
    - collyw 8y ago
      What churches use this? As an (open minded) atheist it annoys me that religious groups get privileges over the rest of us, (when most of the time these religions seems to amount to a lack of critical thinking and objectivity). I would be interested in trying something like this, but the likely means would seem to be likely criminal and unsupervised. (Saying that I live in Spain and have seen some something like "bufo" toad stuff advertised alongside ayahuasca in retreats with a bit of new age crap thrown in for good measure. As an open minded atheist I would like to experience something like that without any belief based religious stuff attached). In my own country it would most definitely be illegal.
namero999 8y ago
Another fast-acting psychedelic is Salvia Divinorum. Salvinorin-A is a one-of-a-kind compound, different from all the other known psychedelic/entheogens both for its structure (which allowed it to stay legal for longer) as well as for its "dysphoric" effect. The experience can be as intense as something like this can be. Completely dissociative, and scary as well. Despite all of this though, I can't overstate the beneficial effects that a dozen of experiences spread across a decade had on me. From a grumpy loner, to a compassionate human being who can't get angry anymore (and no, I'm not apathic), the absolutely REAL experience of losing all of this, made me pretty much fall in love with life, and at the same time made me more light-hearted with it. It's hard to explain, but once you experience something as real as the only real thing you thought there was (life), you start questioning it quite a lot and to take it a bit less seriously. Maybe I simply grew up. But when I think of this change, these experiences are the first thing that comes to mind. Please be responsible and careful with these experiences. You don't want to waste a good opportunity for growth.
- oldstrangers 8y ago
  Really odd to see you promoting Salvia, one of the psychedelics with the worst (and deserved) reputations imaginable. I know you give you passing warning of it being "scary as hell", but that's probably not a strong enough of a warning. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvqkvb/why-is-salvia-so-uniquely-terrifying-1015 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvqkvb/why-is-salvia-so-u...
  - palimpsests 8y ago
    This bad reputation is usually based on people's experiences of consuming this through smoking the leaves. This can be and often is very intense, intensely psychedelic, and deeply terrifying. The traditional way to consume this medicine is orally - through chewing on the leaves or taking a tincture. The onset is much slower and gentler, and provides ample space and time for the some incredible visionary experiences to open and unfold in a much safer container.
  - pantalaimon 8y ago
    I don't know, I always found it to be an interesting experience too. The effects are very much unlike other psychedelics indeed and I can see how they can be terrifying for some - it might feel as if your body is being controlled by another entity and you are just an observer, watching. The shift in perception can be pretty dramatic too! This is probably depending on the dose. I've never tried more than 20x extract mixed with leaves. There are much stronger concentrate, I can see how those would be terrifying if you didn't know what to expect.
b1gtuna 8y ago
So where can I obtain this? Legally?
- simonsaidit 8y ago
  Dunno but its little sister dmt is easily made by yourself and to me less scary/risky with the same benefits. You Can order root bark legally and extract it in your kitchen.
- virtualwhys 8y ago
  Nowhere, but Mexico's probably your best bet -- the Sonoran desert, where the 5-Meo-DMT secreting toads live, runs through northern Mexico and southern Arizona. For obvious reasons it's best to avoid the land of the free.
- angel_j 8y ago
  From a frog.
- delaaxe 8y ago
  It's legal in Canada and most of Europe
- cwkoss 8y ago
  Google jungle spice
virtualwhys 8y ago
5-Meo-DMT, the non-psychedelic psychedelic. Void of visuals, full of infinity. Even before your head hits the pillow, already, you know. No time for, "am I ready?", only, "there's no going back". It's not a stretch to call it the the king of psychedelics. p.s. depending on nothing, isn't that the ultimate way? While it may be interesting to immediately encounter the "truth", a painting of a rice cake doesn't satisfy hunger (paraphrasing, iirc, Eihei Dogen).
Cynddl 8y ago
> This questionnaire included a series of questions about whether respondents had a specific psychiatric condition, including depression or anxiety (categorical response options: yes, no, unsure), and whether their conditions had changed (categorical response options: better, stayed the same, worsened) after 5-MeO-DMT use. This is a self-reported study. Asking whether a substance or drug improved someone condition will often result in positive answers, whether or not it was therapeutically useful. In the sample, more than 90% of individuals had already used 5-MeO-DMT, 41% had depression, 48% with anxiety. 79% reported that “their anxiety was better following 5-MeO-DMT use”. This is indeed not a balanced sample, and self-reports provide very weak results compared to a proper double-blind study. While doing a double-blind study on such substances might be challenging, there are definitely tools and environments that can help correctly measure the true effect of a substance on depression on anxiety. I don't see how this study proves anything.
5meodmtttt 8y ago
5-MEO is a powerful drug that will induce seizures at high dosage (exceeding 20mg is not recommended if you aren't well acquainted with DMT style experiences). Whereas N-N-DMT is like the eastern god (veiled, mysterious, enchanting), 5-MEO is like the western god of Abraham, a blinding flash of light smacking you across the face with righteous fury. N-N can be dosed pretty freely, but 5-MEO is dangerous if dosed inaccurately. As compared to LSD, the DMT tryptamines are short lasting. LSD only has visual hallucinations at dosages greater than 200mcg and the visual hallucinations are actually quite mild for most people (basically it looks kinda like someone dripped a solution of oil and water onto your eyeball so you get some thin rainbow like effects that trace in lines, or some effect of lines 'breathing'). This is not like the DMT hallucination. Even at very low doses, DMT can provide complete visual cortex replacement even with open eyes. It is not uncommon to see your entire field of view replaced with complex scenes on N-N. On 5-MEO you are just overwhelmed with light. It is surreal. I actually don't think there's a lot to be gained from DMT beyond accepting that you understand consciousness less than you think you do and that the level to which our narratives of reality are hallucinations is quite deep. It's easy to believe that we are the only thing that is real and all other things are just our hallucinations (but that narrative really isn't helpful if you're trying to do literally anything that requires more than self, which, let's be real anything beyond masturbation requires interaction beyond the self). In short, low dosage of LSD is more profound than DMT by a long short, but high dose LSD is deeply confusing. I think a small dose of DMT in either 5-MEO or N-N form is fun, but not profound. If you've never done any kind of psychedelic before, a high dose of MDMA will help you learn more about yourself and your interactions with others than the stronger psychedelics. Source: 500+ LSD experiences, 300+ DMT experiences, 1500+ hallucinogenic experiences.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
DanBC 8y ago
This means very little until we have all the research available, and until we've run a good meta-analysis. When Prozac was introduced we had claims that it was a miracle drug, and made people "better than well", and that current drug licencing laws were unjust because you could only get prozac if you had depression and this was denying access to it for the general population. Now we know that it's a somewhat useful medication for some people, especially when provided with therapy and other psycho-social interventions, but it is very far from the miraculous claims. tldr claims of efficacy for depression treatment are either outright bullshit or oversold.
mruts 8y ago
I’ve taken 5-meo-dmt several times it’s probably the most powerful and uncomfortable psychedelic I’ve ever tried (and I’ve tried just about everything). Makes you feel like you are dying, would not recommend.
marssaxman 8y ago
I have a friend who experienced 5-MeO-DMT in this fashion three times. In each case he reported that it was a powerfully overwhelming ecstatic experience; it felt like contact with the divine. A key feature of the experience was that his ability to control the trip was completely overwhelmed; it is an experience of surrender. His depression improved because he gained a temporary perspective on the world which was utterly suffused with love and light; after it faded, he still remembered what it had felt like, and knowing that it was possible to see the same world in such different ways based on nothing but a chemical state change in the brain has made it possible for him to stop taking his own current state of mind so seriously. It is just one of many possible ways of experiencing the world, after all.
- strychn9ne9 8y ago
  I think he experienced a form of "ego death". My understanding is that it works on varying levels for some but not all. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad to hear it's worked so well for him.

206 points by EndXA 8y ago

dawhizkid 8y ago

As soon as I can I will invest all my money in companies productizing therapeutic psychedelics...

abyssin 8y ago
Not sure there's much money to be made there, as many of the psychedelic compounds are both cheap to produce and unpatented.
- temp129838 8y ago
  Look at Ketamine...just make some trivial change with no impact to the active part of the chemical and you can patent it.
  - wbrasky 8y ago
    Why on earth would someone use an expensive, patent-encumbered drug when there's regular Ketamine that can do the same thing?
    - temp129838 8y ago
      It's the racket of big pharma. Ketamine isn't approved for the treatment of depression but Johnson & Johnson's patented Esketamine is. If you want to go the legal route that is your only option. Depending on how much your insurance plan covers you, as a patient, might only pay a fixed copay with your insurance covering the rest, so you might not actually "feel" the $7k price tag at all. The real scam that has played out over the last few decades though is that as employer insurance costs rise wage growth has slowed. We've all been paying for rising insurance costs even if we don't necessarily feel it.
      - EamonnMR 8y ago
        It's really a form of regulatory capture and goes way beyond drugs into medical devices, IT systems, etc. The "approved" thing is often a more expensive, less complete/reliable/modern version of something people who aren't subject to regulation can get off the shelf. You can think of it sort of like if car dealerships managed to get a law passed that said you can only service your car at the dealership, and then 10x'd their prices.
    - drewmol 8y ago
      Because the penalties for unauthorized possession in the US range from (up to) 6 months to 8 years with fines up to $25,000 varying by state and the only way to acquire it in an authorized manor restricts it's prescribed usage to a narrow scope of conditions, the treatment of depression not included.
50656E6973 8y ago
It's sure to be a money loser compared to other addictive psychiatric drugs which are taken daily as a maintenance to the problem. Drugs like DMT should only be taken once in a blue moon, are not addictive, and are extremely cheap to produce.
- ddorian43 8y ago
  Which psychiatric drug is addictive ?
  - 50656E6973 8y ago
    Xanax is one. Many anti depressants can have severe withdrawal effects as well, though I suppose that is more indicative of dependency rather than addiction.
    - ddorian43 8y ago
      Yes, but xanax is only used short term I think. Withdrawal isn't the same as addicting, no ?
      - goldmouth 8y ago
        Wrong again, Xanax is prescribed for years at a time. Many people go decades taking a few mg of Xanax a day.
        DanBC 8y ago
        In the US. In eg the UK it's somewhat difficult to get xanax, but similar meds should only be used short term. https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/alprazolam.html https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drug/alprazolam.html > Avoid prolonged use (and abrupt withdrawal thereafter); debilitated patients (reduce dose) (in adults); elderly (reduce dose) (in adults); history of alcohol dependence or abuse; history of drug dependence or abuse; myasthenia gravis; personality disorder (within the fearful group—dependent, avoidant, obsessive-compulsive) may increase risk of dependence; respiratory disease https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs53/chapter/Quality-statement-3-Pharmacological-treatment https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/qs53/chapter/Quality-statem... > NICE guidance provides recommendations on pharmacological therapies for anxiety disorders. Benzodiazepines are associated with tolerance and dependence, and antipsychotics are associated with a number of adverse effects. Therefore they should not be used routinely to treat anxiety disorders. > Healthcare professionals should be aware of circumstances in which benzodiazepines and antipsychotics may be appropriate, such as short-term care and anxiety disorder crises. Here's a website showing that alprazolam is not prescribed in the community: https://openprescribing.net/analyse/#org=CCG&numIds=0401020A0&denom=nothing&selectedTab=summary https://openprescribing.net/analyse/#org=CCG&numIds=0401020A...
natalyarostova 8y ago
Only to promptly lose it when it's blanket-banned because a 15 year old got his hands on some, and then committed suicide in the midst of a paranoid hallucination. (fwiw I think it should be legal too)

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

Did the study clarify whether the effects were long-lasting, or were the psychedelic drugs simply a momentary distraction?

temp129838 8y ago
From my experience, especially with psilocybin (shrooms), the main benefit is not hallocinogenic at all (at a ~2g or so dose) but that it has the effect of basically forcing you to confront all the emotional pain that you bury and ignore. I always end up laugh-crying and experiencing revelations about myself, my relationship etc that I simply don't have otherwise. I can see how effective it can be when taken while in therapy because you basically force yourself to open up. It's a truth serum, of sorts. I have not tried DMT but my understanding of ayahuasca (active ingredient is DMT) retreats in places like Peru is that it's like "10 years of therapy in a week."
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  Your first paragraph is exactly how I describe it to people. I'm a big proponent of LSD, but only to those that I think are intelligent enough to make a considered choice[1], and always with caveat that it involves a temporary lapse in your ability to shove things down into your subconscious that you'd rather not deal with. The implication is that if you feel like you're not currently ready to throw open that door and take an honest look at your issues, then it's likely not yet for you. [1] I know this is unavoidably derisive, but I mean this in the most mundane way possible. Some people I know can read the literature & integrate other sources of data (including anecdotal data and cautious experimentation) and come out with a best-effort understanding of the science that's far superior to the blunter recommendations and laws that are the start and end of most people's investigations. The latter play an important role, since most people just don't have the critical thinking or epistemological skills to integrate a big messy pile of data saying contradictory things with different types and quality of source. This goes for everything from psychedelics to nutrition to interpreting your blood test results.
- pantalaimon 8y ago
  While I agree, I think it has to be noted that those revelations have a tendency to get eroded by everyday life. It sure is no panacea, but it can be the first step.

Moodles 8y ago

I’ve taken psychedelics a few times. Sometimes, it’s just been mild and giggling at colors and nature. Pleasant, but just kind of a fun drug. Sometimes it’s been just extremely confusing and not at all fun, to the extent that I’d forget my own name or what I’ve taken and basically just all memories. It’s very frustrating to be in that state, constantly trying not to fly away but not able to ground yourself. It’s a little disturbing, but not horrific. Sometimes though, it’s been a truly beautiful, enlightening experience. I still think of it sometimes. It’s very difficult to really explain in words, but it feels like kind of extreme empathy with all life. Buddhists would call it going egoless. I just felt very at peace: we all live, we all die, and it’s all okay. I’m not particularly religious or spiritual at all but that experience really changed me a bit, I still think of it. It feels like a shortcut to enlightenment that usually takes a lifetime of meditation, albeit short-lasting. To really get it permanently, you probably have to meditate a lot. It was amazing. It feels like life is in all these different forms, and you just happen to be one variation of it, but you could easily be any other living thing, so you just feel love and empathy for all life. And you know it’s finite and you’re not afraid of death. I would still attempt to avoid death, but I was just at peace with it if it was inevitable. I think it’s a shame psychedelics get put in the same category as other drugs in the law and in people’s heads. It’s not at all the same as heroin, meth, cocaine. Not at all. I think on balance they should probably be legal, but I can easily imagine someone with mental illness struggling with mushrooms so I’m glad John Hopkins is doing these studies. It does seem like the therapeutic affects are long-lasting, and it’s not like you can overdose on them. The worst that can happen is you do something stupid while on them. However if the dose is so strong, you probably wouldn’t be able to move much anyway. Edit: a lot of replies to this post seem to talk about LSD. I was actually talking about mushrooms. I've only taken LSD once. Maybe the distinction matters.

ta1234567890 8y ago
You might enjoy reading the book How to Change your Mind by Michael Pollan. It describes exactly what you are saying, has lots of different testimonials and has a great overview of the whole psychedelic therapy research world going from the 50s all the way to now.
umvi 8y ago

aaaaaaaaaaab 8y ago

Contact: dr. Elf Machine MD

cliffwarden 8y ago
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BaggyGaseousAgouti-max-1mb.gif https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BaggyGaseousAgouti-max-1mb.gif
cpeterso 8y ago
See https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf https://non-aliencreatures.fandom.com/wiki/Machine_Elf

simonsaidit 8y ago

Said this for years nothing is as powerfull as dmt/hamalas .. I’ve seen a dusin times how it changed the life of someone myself included with a single trip you could live on it for years.

hirundo 8y ago

> Righteous outrage isn't just an addictive drug, it's a hallucinogen. - Elijah William Eby Although equating outrage with a drug is a metaphor it seems to me to be a strong one. No doubt its effects are mediated by neurotransmitters as are directly chemical hallucinogens. Yet outrage seems to generally enhance depression and anxiety. Maybe that's because hallucinations caused by outrage feel more like simple perceptions of reality, and it's depressing that reality is so outrageous. Whereas chemically induced hallucinations can more easily be discounted.

tayo42 8y ago

Is there significance to the 5-meo-dmt? It seems close to dmt, 4-ho-dmt, and some of the research chems like 4-aco-dmt?

Alex3917 8y ago
Completely different. James Oroc wrote a book on it, and there are also a bunch of YouTube videos of him talking about the differences between DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. https://www.amazon.com/Tryptamine-Palace-5-MeO-DMT-Sonoran-Desert/dp/1594772991 https://www.amazon.com/Tryptamine-Palace-5-MeO-DMT-Sonoran-D... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=james+oroc https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=james+oroc
- simonsaidit 8y ago
  His explanation sounds more like Changa than 5-meo-dmt... i never had it last as long as he describes or seen others and Ive Been assistent with hundreds of trips . Only changa would last 45min to a little over an hour. Pure DMT and 5-meo-dmt perhaps 25 min if lucky.
mirceal 8y ago
it’s close to dmt in the sense that part of it’s structure is DMT. as far as effects, if you believe the literature: dmt is like sailing into the sunset and 5meo is like stapping yourself to a rocket. both give you something, but radically different
- simonsaidit 8y ago
  Both have a Quick onset... id say a rocket. With changa eg + hamalas its more slow onset but more powerfull. Someone described 5-meo-dmt to me as power/maskoline and changa as love/feminine and i have the same feeling about it.
- chess93 8y ago
  More like sailing in to the sun :)

Alex3917 8y ago

This is an interesting survey result, but given that 5-MeO-DMT can cause sudden cardiac arrest I doubt this will ever go to clinical trials.

loceng 8y ago
Citation? Curious also how this compares to other classes of medications.
- collyw 8y ago
  Erowid doesn't mention any of that. https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt_death.shtml https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt_death.sht...
- Alex3917 8y ago
  James Oroc talks about it in his book / interviews. There are a couple churches that use 5-MeO-DMT as a sacrament, but I think they have a defibrillator and someone with medical training on hand. I don't think it's excessively dangerous if you have good cardiovascular fitness and are able to accurately dose it, but it's still substantially more dangerous than something like DMT. There is/was a church called Temple of Awakening Divinity (TOAD), and there are some interviews with the founder online.
  - collyw 8y ago
    What churches use this? As an (open minded) atheist it annoys me that religious groups get privileges over the rest of us, (when most of the time these religions seems to amount to a lack of critical thinking and objectivity). I would be interested in trying something like this, but the likely means would seem to be likely criminal and unsupervised. (Saying that I live in Spain and have seen some something like "bufo" toad stuff advertised alongside ayahuasca in retreats with a bit of new age crap thrown in for good measure. As an open minded atheist I would like to experience something like that without any belief based religious stuff attached). In my own country it would most definitely be illegal.

namero999 8y ago

Another fast-acting psychedelic is Salvia Divinorum. Salvinorin-A is a one-of-a-kind compound, different from all the other known psychedelic/entheogens both for its structure (which allowed it to stay legal for longer) as well as for its "dysphoric" effect. The experience can be as intense as something like this can be. Completely dissociative, and scary as well. Despite all of this though, I can't overstate the beneficial effects that a dozen of experiences spread across a decade had on me. From a grumpy loner, to a compassionate human being who can't get angry anymore (and no, I'm not apathic), the absolutely REAL experience of losing all of this, made me pretty much fall in love with life, and at the same time made me more light-hearted with it. It's hard to explain, but once you experience something as real as the only real thing you thought there was (life), you start questioning it quite a lot and to take it a bit less seriously. Maybe I simply grew up. But when I think of this change, these experiences are the first thing that comes to mind. Please be responsible and careful with these experiences. You don't want to waste a good opportunity for growth.

oldstrangers 8y ago
Really odd to see you promoting Salvia, one of the psychedelics with the worst (and deserved) reputations imaginable. I know you give you passing warning of it being "scary as hell", but that's probably not a strong enough of a warning. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvqkvb/why-is-salvia-so-uniquely-terrifying-1015 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/yvqkvb/why-is-salvia-so-u...
- palimpsests 8y ago
  This bad reputation is usually based on people's experiences of consuming this through smoking the leaves. This can be and often is very intense, intensely psychedelic, and deeply terrifying. The traditional way to consume this medicine is orally - through chewing on the leaves or taking a tincture. The onset is much slower and gentler, and provides ample space and time for the some incredible visionary experiences to open and unfold in a much safer container.
- pantalaimon 8y ago
  I don't know, I always found it to be an interesting experience too. The effects are very much unlike other psychedelics indeed and I can see how they can be terrifying for some - it might feel as if your body is being controlled by another entity and you are just an observer, watching. The shift in perception can be pretty dramatic too! This is probably depending on the dose. I've never tried more than 20x extract mixed with leaves. There are much stronger concentrate, I can see how those would be terrifying if you didn't know what to expect.

b1gtuna 8y ago

So where can I obtain this? Legally?

simonsaidit 8y ago
Dunno but its little sister dmt is easily made by yourself and to me less scary/risky with the same benefits. You Can order root bark legally and extract it in your kitchen.
virtualwhys 8y ago
Nowhere, but Mexico's probably your best bet -- the Sonoran desert, where the 5-Meo-DMT secreting toads live, runs through northern Mexico and southern Arizona. For obvious reasons it's best to avoid the land of the free.
angel_j 8y ago
From a frog.
delaaxe 8y ago
It's legal in Canada and most of Europe
cwkoss 8y ago
Google jungle spice

virtualwhys 8y ago

5-Meo-DMT, the non-psychedelic psychedelic. Void of visuals, full of infinity. Even before your head hits the pillow, already, you know. No time for, "am I ready?", only, "there's no going back". It's not a stretch to call it the the king of psychedelics. p.s. depending on nothing, isn't that the ultimate way? While it may be interesting to immediately encounter the "truth", a painting of a rice cake doesn't satisfy hunger (paraphrasing, iirc, Eihei Dogen).

Cynddl 8y ago

> This questionnaire included a series of questions about whether respondents had a specific psychiatric condition, including depression or anxiety (categorical response options: yes, no, unsure), and whether their conditions had changed (categorical response options: better, stayed the same, worsened) after 5-MeO-DMT use. This is a self-reported study. Asking whether a substance or drug improved someone condition will often result in positive answers, whether or not it was therapeutically useful. In the sample, more than 90% of individuals had already used 5-MeO-DMT, 41% had depression, 48% with anxiety. 79% reported that “their anxiety was better following 5-MeO-DMT use”. This is indeed not a balanced sample, and self-reports provide very weak results compared to a proper double-blind study. While doing a double-blind study on such substances might be challenging, there are definitely tools and environments that can help correctly measure the true effect of a substance on depression on anxiety. I don't see how this study proves anything.

5meodmtttt 8y ago

5-MEO is a powerful drug that will induce seizures at high dosage (exceeding 20mg is not recommended if you aren't well acquainted with DMT style experiences). Whereas N-N-DMT is like the eastern god (veiled, mysterious, enchanting), 5-MEO is like the western god of Abraham, a blinding flash of light smacking you across the face with righteous fury. N-N can be dosed pretty freely, but 5-MEO is dangerous if dosed inaccurately. As compared to LSD, the DMT tryptamines are short lasting. LSD only has visual hallucinations at dosages greater than 200mcg and the visual hallucinations are actually quite mild for most people (basically it looks kinda like someone dripped a solution of oil and water onto your eyeball so you get some thin rainbow like effects that trace in lines, or some effect of lines 'breathing'). This is not like the DMT hallucination. Even at very low doses, DMT can provide complete visual cortex replacement even with open eyes. It is not uncommon to see your entire field of view replaced with complex scenes on N-N. On 5-MEO you are just overwhelmed with light. It is surreal. I actually don't think there's a lot to be gained from DMT beyond accepting that you understand consciousness less than you think you do and that the level to which our narratives of reality are hallucinations is quite deep. It's easy to believe that we are the only thing that is real and all other things are just our hallucinations (but that narrative really isn't helpful if you're trying to do literally anything that requires more than self, which, let's be real anything beyond masturbation requires interaction beyond the self). In short, low dosage of LSD is more profound than DMT by a long short, but high dose LSD is deeply confusing. I think a small dose of DMT in either 5-MEO or N-N form is fun, but not profound. If you've never done any kind of psychedelic before, a high dose of MDMA will help you learn more about yourself and your interactions with others than the stronger psychedelics. Source: 500+ LSD experiences, 300+ DMT experiences, 1500+ hallucinogenic experiences.

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DanBC 8y ago

This means very little until we have all the research available, and until we've run a good meta-analysis. When Prozac was introduced we had claims that it was a miracle drug, and made people "better than well", and that current drug licencing laws were unjust because you could only get prozac if you had depression and this was denying access to it for the general population. Now we know that it's a somewhat useful medication for some people, especially when provided with therapy and other psycho-social interventions, but it is very far from the miraculous claims. tldr claims of efficacy for depression treatment are either outright bullshit or oversold.

mruts 8y ago

I’ve taken 5-meo-dmt several times it’s probably the most powerful and uncomfortable psychedelic I’ve ever tried (and I’ve tried just about everything). Makes you feel like you are dying, would not recommend.

marssaxman 8y ago

I have a friend who experienced 5-MeO-DMT in this fashion three times. In each case he reported that it was a powerfully overwhelming ecstatic experience; it felt like contact with the divine. A key feature of the experience was that his ability to control the trip was completely overwhelmed; it is an experience of surrender. His depression improved because he gained a temporary perspective on the world which was utterly suffused with love and light; after it faded, he still remembered what it had felt like, and knowing that it was possible to see the same world in such different ways based on nothing but a chemical state change in the brain has made it possible for him to stop taking his own current state of mind so seriously. It is just one of many possible ways of experiencing the world, after all.

strychn9ne9 8y ago
I think he experienced a form of "ego death". My understanding is that it works on varying levels for some but not all. Thanks for sharing and I'm glad to hear it's worked so well for him.