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There may be a rock unturned here. Neither women nor men have anything close to perfect information about what their careers might be like down years of a pros

There may be a rock unturned here. Neither women nor men have anything close to perfect information about what their careers might be like down years of a prospective path. Many career decisions are influenced by the crudest of stereotypes. If the stars of the computing world (who barely receive much press anyway) seem to be mostly introverted men, and if those already into computers seem lacking in either social grace or extraversion, then who's to blame them for choosing careers which would appear to help them be more socially engaged. So women flock to fields like nursing, and teaching. Who told them that both operate in an often stiflingly apathetic bureaucracy? Of computers and engineering, they've in many cases never had the joy of being able to make something work on their own. For all they know, cooking is more creative. They have no idea how exciting the startup world is, how gratifying to work on something new, how empowering it feels to have the wind of social benefit at your back, how freeing it is to be able to choose your work to be most important, as opposed to being most externally justifiable. Extraverted women and men have shied away from computers and related fields for a long time. But perhaps it's not so much a function of the nature of our field. Perhaps we just have bad press.

llimllib 18y ago
> choosing careers which would appear to help them be more socially engaged... it's not so much a function of the nature of our field Are you questioning which career is in fact more socially engaged? Can you name a field which is less socially engaged than CS/Math? It seems to me that it is a function of the nature of our field, which demands long stretches of unbroken attention, that draws people who desire large amounts of social activity away.
- DaniFong 18y ago
  Undoubtably some tech jobs are suitable only for hermits. But the variance within fields, as is the variance within genders, dwarfs by far the variance between them.
  - llimllib 18y ago
    > the variance within fields, as is the variance within genders, dwarfs by far the variance between them. This is a slightly weaker statement than the one made above, but I still don't agree with it. Surely there is variance, but the median programmer is far far less social than the median (for example) doctor. Yes, there are Tim Brays on our side who are quite socially oriented and radiologists and virologists who never see actual patients on their side, but every real programming job requires you to be alone and focused on a computer for long stretches of time. Is this incorrect somehow? What programming positions don't require this? (My fiancee is a resident, and I assure you that she does not spend long stretches of time on singularly focused tasks like programmers do - you will have to have a spectacularly convincing argument to convince me otherwise)
    - DaniFong 18y ago
      I actually didn't argue with that. Maybe the 'typical' programming job is a terrible fit for the 'typical' woman. But there's a solution. Forget the 'typical' programming job. Even if the typical tech career would suck, it's still possible that of all possible careers, there a tech career that's the best for you. I think this is largely true in the startup world. And I think that if the press on startups focused less on founder youth, geekiness, and round-the-clock machismo, and more on the social benefit produced, the freedom gained, and the excitement experienced, we'd start to see very different people founding companies and working in computers. One might even suggest that's already starting to happen. Many fields can have long periods spent alone, honing one's abilities. Lawyers can. Writers can. Musicians can. Housewifes can. It may be a defining hallmark of technical careers, but I think it's far overrepresented in both the media, and our own heads.
- gizmo 18y ago
  Electrical Engineering is the worst in my experience. Then Computer Science. Then physics. Then math. Math people are probably as introverted as people from Electrical Engineering, but they don't proudly carry their social incompetence as a label. Biologists who, say, monitor and log the behavior of animal life also wait for hours in pure concentration, so they won't miss anything when (or if) something happens. Usually introverted people sign up for that kind of thing, but not really socially awkward ones.
  - wallflower 18y ago
    I remember long hours with difficult homework sets while my liberal arts major friends would go out and party. I only know a few engineers who could get their homework done and party. Engineering doesn't give you a lot of free time to party - I spent years of my life in the engineering building - liberal arts majors on the other hand...they can have a different college experience. Most of the girls who were in my program were smarter. Why would you choose a major that puts a major crimp in your social life?
timr 18y ago
It's not just bad press; engineers (of any stripe) are often frighteningly socially incompetent. In my experience, this is true far more often than for lawyers or medical doctors. It's also a kind of stereotype to say that programming is about creation and empowerment; the existence of this forum (and most of what pg writes) seems to me a reaction to the utterly dismal, uncreative state of most programming jobs. So it's not really fair to say that people flock to other fields based on misinformation. Most computer-related jobs really do suck.
- DaniFong 18y ago
  Perhaps I was insufficiently specific. The problem isn't that the conception of the median programming job is wrong. The problem is that technical people of both genders are often completely unaware of the existence of better jobs. Sometimes, when people talk of career prospects of becoming a programmer, they say it with such disdain that they might as well be talking about becoming a drone.
  - aswanson 18y ago
    they say it with such disdain that they might as well be talking about becoming a drone Not without good cause. Startups aside, the vast majority of programmers and engineers spend their careers implementing other people's ideas. Outliers that start their own companies are very rare. In law and medicine, it seems that running a startup (your own pratice) is the expected progression of a successful career. They are groomed to expect it. The typical tech/science track seems to be tailored to produce....drones. Judge them by their fruits.
    - timr 18y ago
      Well said. Even in academic science, the presumption is that you will one day lead your own research group (however unlikely that may be)...and academia is not known for progressive organizational thinking. Closer to your example: my dentist is in his mid-20s, and already owns a half share in two established practices. How many programmers own a half share in their own business at 25?

llimllib 18y ago

> choosing careers which would appear to help them be more socially engaged... it's not so much a function of the nature of our field Are you questioning which career is in fact more socially engaged? Can you name a field which is less socially engaged than CS/Math? It seems to me that it is a function of the nature of our field, which demands long stretches of unbroken attention, that draws people who desire large amounts of social activity away.

DaniFong 18y ago
Undoubtably some tech jobs are suitable only for hermits. But the variance within fields, as is the variance within genders, dwarfs by far the variance between them.
- llimllib 18y ago
  > the variance within fields, as is the variance within genders, dwarfs by far the variance between them. This is a slightly weaker statement than the one made above, but I still don't agree with it. Surely there is variance, but the median programmer is far far less social than the median (for example) doctor. Yes, there are Tim Brays on our side who are quite socially oriented and radiologists and virologists who never see actual patients on their side, but every real programming job requires you to be alone and focused on a computer for long stretches of time. Is this incorrect somehow? What programming positions don't require this? (My fiancee is a resident, and I assure you that she does not spend long stretches of time on singularly focused tasks like programmers do - you will have to have a spectacularly convincing argument to convince me otherwise)
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    I actually didn't argue with that. Maybe the 'typical' programming job is a terrible fit for the 'typical' woman. But there's a solution. Forget the 'typical' programming job. Even if the typical tech career would suck, it's still possible that of all possible careers, there a tech career that's the best for you. I think this is largely true in the startup world. And I think that if the press on startups focused less on founder youth, geekiness, and round-the-clock machismo, and more on the social benefit produced, the freedom gained, and the excitement experienced, we'd start to see very different people founding companies and working in computers. One might even suggest that's already starting to happen. Many fields can have long periods spent alone, honing one's abilities. Lawyers can. Writers can. Musicians can. Housewifes can. It may be a defining hallmark of technical careers, but I think it's far overrepresented in both the media, and our own heads.
gizmo 18y ago
Electrical Engineering is the worst in my experience. Then Computer Science. Then physics. Then math. Math people are probably as introverted as people from Electrical Engineering, but they don't proudly carry their social incompetence as a label. Biologists who, say, monitor and log the behavior of animal life also wait for hours in pure concentration, so they won't miss anything when (or if) something happens. Usually introverted people sign up for that kind of thing, but not really socially awkward ones.
- wallflower 18y ago
  I remember long hours with difficult homework sets while my liberal arts major friends would go out and party. I only know a few engineers who could get their homework done and party. Engineering doesn't give you a lot of free time to party - I spent years of my life in the engineering building - liberal arts majors on the other hand...they can have a different college experience. Most of the girls who were in my program were smarter. Why would you choose a major that puts a major crimp in your social life?

timr 18y ago

It's not just bad press; engineers (of any stripe) are often frighteningly socially incompetent. In my experience, this is true far more often than for lawyers or medical doctors. It's also a kind of stereotype to say that programming is about creation and empowerment; the existence of this forum (and most of what pg writes) seems to me a reaction to the utterly dismal, uncreative state of most programming jobs. So it's not really fair to say that people flock to other fields based on misinformation. Most computer-related jobs really do suck.

DaniFong 18y ago
Perhaps I was insufficiently specific. The problem isn't that the conception of the median programming job is wrong. The problem is that technical people of both genders are often completely unaware of the existence of better jobs. Sometimes, when people talk of career prospects of becoming a programmer, they say it with such disdain that they might as well be talking about becoming a drone.
- aswanson 18y ago
  they say it with such disdain that they might as well be talking about becoming a drone Not without good cause. Startups aside, the vast majority of programmers and engineers spend their careers implementing other people's ideas. Outliers that start their own companies are very rare. In law and medicine, it seems that running a startup (your own pratice) is the expected progression of a successful career. They are groomed to expect it. The typical tech/science track seems to be tailored to produce....drones. Judge them by their fruits.
  - timr 18y ago
    Well said. Even in academic science, the presumption is that you will one day lead your own research group (however unlikely that may be)...and academia is not known for progressive organizational thinking. Closer to your example: my dentist is in his mid-20s, and already owns a half share in two established practices. How many programmers own a half share in their own business at 25?