4 ms·

Good read. It is tragic that he was killed in the name of anti-immigrant sentiment, when he seems to be a perfect example of an immigrant success story.

by willbw 8y ago

fabianhjr 8y ago
> when he seems to be a perfect example of an immigrant success story. Either they are "unsuccessful" and "leeching of social benefits" or they are "successful" and "are stealing their jobs". It is a nationalist catch-22 were there are no successful immigrants, just insecure nationalists that feel disposable and in the process of "being replaced".
- chii 8y ago
  so what you're saying is that as more people are dis-enfranchised, they will resort to more and more violent means to try to enact change. I don't think this has anything to do with white supremacy or nationalism - but that those ideologies are easy to use as justification. So in the end, the only way to solve this problem is to prevent dis-enfranchisement of the poor and vulnerable. UBI is my go to solution.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - fabianhjr 8y ago
    ¿How is an UBI going to help the feeling of "being useless / unnecessary / a burden" and seeing immigrants as the ones "taking away" their jobs as capital opts for outsourcing and automation? The abhorrent coward assailant wasn't even lumpen to begin with.
    - jimjimjim 8y ago
      yep, he wasn't poor or vulnerable.
    - chii 8y ago
      > an UBI going to help the feeling of "being useless / unnecessary / a burden" and seeing immigrants as the ones "taking away" their jobs they'd have enough to persue some alternate goal, rather than be radicalized by those who seeks to prey on the disenfranchised. I m not talking about this individual, but in general. If you look at people who suicide bomb, they are often poor, often have nothing to lose, and often is promised something in return (whether it's heaven in the after life, or benefits for their family?). By taking away these sorts of people (and UBI is one way), it makes it harder to recruit for terrorism or other fundamentalist ideology.
- tomp 8y ago
  A more reasonable fear / complaint would be change / deterioration of local culture, in case the immigrants refuse to assimilate.
  - fabianhjr 8y ago
    That is even more unreasonable, culture is constantly produced and changed, there isn't a "local culture" to assimilate to and a culture is richer the more diverse and exploratory it is. On the other hand if you are using "culture" as a proxy for "they don't behave like us the colonizers of New Zealand" it is even worse. < https://www.wikiwand.com/en/M%C4%81ori_people https://www.wikiwand.com/en/M%C4%81ori_people >
    - masonic 8y ago
      culture is constantly produced and changed, there isn't a "local culture" That's a mindset that the Maori, like many other Aboriginal peoples, have already suffered.
      - fabianhjr 8y ago
        That statement isn't meant as to say that people don't have or produce culture, specially first nations. Instead it is a statement about the non-locality of culture. (In the lines of https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Deterritorialization https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Deterritorialization) Even more, the attack on first nations have been mostly on economic aspects, mainly the land trough colonization. (See Mariategui Seven Essays on the Peruvian Reality, specifically the third essay https://www.marxists.org/archive/mariateg/works/7-interpretive-essays/essay03.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/mariateg/works/7-interpreti..., original in spanish: http://resistir.info/livros/mariategui_7_ensayos.pdf http://resistir.info/livros/mariategui_7_ensayos.pdf ) The Maori culture is maintained by Maori people engaging in culture not merely by a museum exposing "the Maori cultre" and a society disenfranchizing Maori.
    - tomp 8y ago
      I’m using “culture” to mean “respect of democrcy, women and rule of (national, not religious) law”. Obviously some cultures are better than others (in my and many other people’s value system) - do you prefer to live in NZ or Saudi Arabia?
- badpun 8y ago
  Can’t both complaints be valid? Working immigrants push wages down, which is great for business, but how is it good for the people? OTOH, immigrants who struggle with integration are an obvious burden on many levels.
  - fabianhjr 8y ago
    United we bargain, devided we beg.
    - badpun 8y ago
      Who’s „we” in this context? Everybody in the world? I don’t think we can coordinate on this scale (which would be required for collective bargaining), at least not yet.
int_19h 8y ago
The terrorist who killed him, and people like him, don't care. Their attitude towards immigration is ideological (white ethnonationalism), not utilitarian.

Good read. It is tragic that he was killed in the name of anti-immigrant sentiment, when he seems to be a perfect example of an immigrant success story.

by willbw 8y ago

Good read. It is tragic that he was killed in the name of anti-immigrant sentiment, when he seems to be a perfect example of an immigrant success story.

fabianhjr 8y ago

> when he seems to be a perfect example of an immigrant success story. Either they are "unsuccessful" and "leeching of social benefits" or they are "successful" and "are stealing their jobs". It is a nationalist catch-22 were there are no successful immigrants, just insecure nationalists that feel disposable and in the process of "being replaced".

chii 8y ago
so what you're saying is that as more people are dis-enfranchised, they will resort to more and more violent means to try to enact change. I don't think this has anything to do with white supremacy or nationalism - but that those ideologies are easy to use as justification. So in the end, the only way to solve this problem is to prevent dis-enfranchisement of the poor and vulnerable. UBI is my go to solution.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- fabianhjr 8y ago
  ¿How is an UBI going to help the feeling of "being useless / unnecessary / a burden" and seeing immigrants as the ones "taking away" their jobs as capital opts for outsourcing and automation? The abhorrent coward assailant wasn't even lumpen to begin with.
  - jimjimjim 8y ago
    yep, he wasn't poor or vulnerable.
  - chii 8y ago
    > an UBI going to help the feeling of "being useless / unnecessary / a burden" and seeing immigrants as the ones "taking away" their jobs they'd have enough to persue some alternate goal, rather than be radicalized by those who seeks to prey on the disenfranchised. I m not talking about this individual, but in general. If you look at people who suicide bomb, they are often poor, often have nothing to lose, and often is promised something in return (whether it's heaven in the after life, or benefits for their family?). By taking away these sorts of people (and UBI is one way), it makes it harder to recruit for terrorism or other fundamentalist ideology.
tomp 8y ago
A more reasonable fear / complaint would be change / deterioration of local culture, in case the immigrants refuse to assimilate.
- fabianhjr 8y ago
  That is even more unreasonable, culture is constantly produced and changed, there isn't a "local culture" to assimilate to and a culture is richer the more diverse and exploratory it is. On the other hand if you are using "culture" as a proxy for "they don't behave like us the colonizers of New Zealand" it is even worse. < https://www.wikiwand.com/en/M%C4%81ori_people https://www.wikiwand.com/en/M%C4%81ori_people >
  - masonic 8y ago
    culture is constantly produced and changed, there isn't a "local culture" That's a mindset that the Maori, like many other Aboriginal peoples, have already suffered.
    - fabianhjr 8y ago
      That statement isn't meant as to say that people don't have or produce culture, specially first nations. Instead it is a statement about the non-locality of culture. (In the lines of https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Deterritorialization https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Deterritorialization) Even more, the attack on first nations have been mostly on economic aspects, mainly the land trough colonization. (See Mariategui Seven Essays on the Peruvian Reality, specifically the third essay https://www.marxists.org/archive/mariateg/works/7-interpretive-essays/essay03.htm https://www.marxists.org/archive/mariateg/works/7-interpreti..., original in spanish: http://resistir.info/livros/mariategui_7_ensayos.pdf http://resistir.info/livros/mariategui_7_ensayos.pdf ) The Maori culture is maintained by Maori people engaging in culture not merely by a museum exposing "the Maori cultre" and a society disenfranchizing Maori.
  - tomp 8y ago
    I’m using “culture” to mean “respect of democrcy, women and rule of (national, not religious) law”. Obviously some cultures are better than others (in my and many other people’s value system) - do you prefer to live in NZ or Saudi Arabia?
badpun 8y ago
Can’t both complaints be valid? Working immigrants push wages down, which is great for business, but how is it good for the people? OTOH, immigrants who struggle with integration are an obvious burden on many levels.
- fabianhjr 8y ago
  United we bargain, devided we beg.
  - badpun 8y ago
    Who’s „we” in this context? Everybody in the world? I don’t think we can coordinate on this scale (which would be required for collective bargaining), at least not yet.

int_19h 8y ago

The terrorist who killed him, and people like him, don't care. Their attitude towards immigration is ideological (white ethnonationalism), not utilitarian.