7 ms·

Just remember, you only have 24 hours in a day. If you start a side project, who or what will you take that time from? It may or may not be worth it for you a

Just remember, you only have 24 hours in a day. If you start a side project, who or what will you take that time from? It may or may not be worth it for you and/or your family. I also do hiring, not a lot of volume, but a rather rigorous process. I hardly ever look at someone's GitHub projects or OSS contributions because a) I don't know how much time they put into that work and productivity is a key metric for us and b) having our own process means I get just the information I need without needing to sift through a lot of code that will take me time to become familiar with. Not arguing this method is best, just that it's a reality that you can't be sure how many prospective employers will care about side projects. It worked for the article's author but it may not work for you. So again, just emphasizing that you should weigh the cost/benefits.

tildedave 8y ago
Agree. The assumption underlying this is that you should use a bulk of your outside-of-work time to advance your career and grow your technical skills. True for some, not true for others.
pgm8705 8y ago
Definitely a consideration. For me, my side project has basically replaced my TV time at night and it's been a significant life improvement. Sometimes I'll sit in the living room with my family and work while they watch TV, which still feels like quality family time.
- sbov 8y ago
  Yeah, I just cut my gaming time. It has actually been a net benefit to time with the wife, because instead of being holed up in my office with my desktop computer, I'm on the couch with my laptop while she watches TV.
  - rooam-dev 8y ago
    Yes, because that counts as spend time with the wife
    - dwags 8y ago
      time spent around the wife counts dude
      - scarejunba 8y ago
        This dude is downvoted but definitely just hanging out with your spouse counts. The availability and comfort of physical presence is a thing. It isn't all the big moments. There's definitely a lot more of just time spent together.
        rooam-dev 8y ago
        So, the guy cut on gaming and working late at the office to be able to do side project, which has a side effect of being around his spouse. It is better than nothing, but not something to be proud of. A side project is still "gaming", just easier to take breaks.
      - rooam-dev 8y ago
        Of course it counts, but not as _with her_ just around, which is different imho.
    - sbov 8y ago
      We talk about what she's watching and what I'm working on. It's not like I put headphones on and ignore my surroundings. And it's definitely not the same as being in two completely different rooms with little to no interactions.
      - rooam-dev 8y ago
        I don't think you can work and spend time together at the same time. Can you text and drive? :)
    - sigstoat 8y ago
      what counts is between them, and doesn't require the approval of internet randos.
  - scriptkiddy 8y ago
    I do the same thing. Luckily, my desktop is in the living room, so I don't have to work on a laptop.
diminoten 8y ago
I'm just looking for any/every way to make the technical interviews I have to do as painless as possible. Putting a project on GitHub that I spend real time on and believe demonstrates my skills as an engineer feels intuitively like an activity that might do that. But you're right, it's not really about filling up time that's otherwise empty, it's really about making trades with the other time-filling things I'd like to do because the value of having a side project temporarily outweighs the value of spending time with my family.
brightball 8y ago
Agreed entirely. It's the same as hiring somebody out of college who had a job all throughout vs somebody who didn't and was involved in a lot of various organizations. The involvement is great at all, but if you've graduated while working it shows great time management too. The side projects are most valuable for conveying desire to learn / solve problems, which is perhaps the most critical trait for successful developer. At the same time, if your job already gives you a chance to showcase that, the side project isn't that big of a deal. The key is just looking for that desire to learn to show through in the candidate. I've seen it from side projects where the side project showed experience (Ruby) that the primary job (.NET) did not, I've seen it from crazy detail and excitement in explaining how you solved a boring low level problem, etc. There are many roads to surfacing that in an interview. When it shows, I'm currently batting 1.000 on the quality of hires though.
austincheney 8y ago
Businesses always claim to value developer productivity, but this is rarely accurate. Usually it’s the stellar opposite of productive despite what they claimed during hiring. Honestly, if they really let me take the gloves off I could easily replace 4-8 other developers. I am not saying that due to arrogance or some delusion. I just value other qualities than most other developers. Usually it’s not that I am fast or anything impressive but that the company is a drowning self-licking ice cream cone. Things get much faster when you get rid of all the framework bullshit, unnecessary process, and focus purely on business requirements and smallest possible delivery. Most of the bullshit (the stuff really slowing you down) that’s in place isn’t there because the business wants it, but because the developers want it. These are things you realize when managing a side project because your time is important to you and the person you answer to is yourself. What’s super frustrating is how awesome that always sounds in an interview and how much the hiring team really appreciates those concerns and that level of honesty. Then once you get the job it’s just the same old slow safety mitten insanity as everywhere else.
- news_to_me 8y ago
  > Most of the bullshit (the stuff really slowing you down) that’s in place isn’t there because the business wants it, but because the developers want it. Do you have examples of this? It sounds contrary to my experience.
  - throwawaymlc 8y ago
    I've often seen developers invent elaborate JIRA workflows and pre-checkin validation workflows that slow development to a glacial pace. Also, JIRA / other ticketing workflows can take on a life of their own - at some point, many developers seem to realize that it's easier to describe defects and potential fixes, spend time categorizing, prioritizing, assigning tickets for doing things than it is to ever actually do them.
  - austincheney 8y ago
    Here are some examples: * spaces versus tabs and then rejecting a code commit because of white space or other draconian rules not related to any business justification. * Whether or not a code update performs actions in certain ways, such as specified methods over other methods, without a valid business justification. Normally this appears to be some manner of code style rule. * Rejecting code that uses functions or makes use of lexical scope instead of OOP. * Rejecting code that doesn't make use of the framework even when that particular existing code file doesn't make use of the framework. * Rejecting code that bypasses the framework even though it is a new effort in new files, thus no regression, and has supporting tests. * Rejecting code because the diff is intimidating. * really long build cycles so that a developer can use their favorite framework or tool * A minor tiny module that requires a million dependencies sets off a warning or conflict in your code at build time and requires you to dive under the hood even though the problem is exposed from some horrid dependency. --- If I thought about this more I am sure I could come up with a bunch more. The business never comes to you and mandates you use a popular new JavaScript framework or that the test environment tests for code style and white space. The business doesn't care about this unnecessary stupidity especially if it makes other business requirements, such as security or accessibility, more challenging. The business cares about reducing expenses, retaining users, not getting sued, and generating revenue. You can justify the stupidity with all manner of technical reasons, but in the end does it allow you to perform simple updates in minutes or days? As a developer you are an expense to the business and not a driver of revenue. If you have to justify your limited productivity with a bunch of technical nonsense you are a financial liability.
adwww 8y ago
Why does this apply almost uniquely to programmers, and not other professions though? Aside from a handful of doctors giving up their holidays to work for MSF or similar overseas, nobody expects lawyers to do pro-bono work in their evenings, or teachers to volunteer spare time teaching different age groups, or whatever the analog might be. Same with training, almost all other jobs give you time for training, but for programming learning new technology is somehow something you should be teaching yourself in your spare time.
- jonfw 8y ago
  It's very circular. You're expected to code in your spare time because your peers code in their spare time. Your peers code in their spare time because it's expected of them. Also- doctors and lawyers better be doing stuff in their spare time. They only get paid when they're working with patients. I sure as hell don't want a doctor who hasn't read a new study since he left medical school.
- mrfusion 8y ago
  Plumbers should fix clogged toilets in their spare time.
- ascar 8y ago
  > Same with training, almost all other jobs give you time for training, but for programming learning new technology is somehow something you should be teaching yourself in your spare time. Maybe it's your company? All companies I worked for so far allowed or even encouraged learning during paid work hours. Even an hour per day. Not something like learning a new language, but stuff like reading up on new framework/tools/architecture, how systems of other teams work or the inner workings of their programming language of choice. Basically anything that could proof useful later.
  - awild 8y ago
    This is very true. I have a colleague who is changing careers and while his lack of knowledge frustrates me from time to time, he is willing to learn, but instead of reading git manuals and bash tutorials at work he had made a deal with management, that he will do overtime now so that he can go home earlier to learn that stuff. And it's all the most basic stuff without which the colleague really wouldn't be able to do their job. (I would honestly not have hired them for their current position but I can't judge).

tildedave 8y ago

Agree. The assumption underlying this is that you should use a bulk of your outside-of-work time to advance your career and grow your technical skills. True for some, not true for others.

pgm8705 8y ago

Definitely a consideration. For me, my side project has basically replaced my TV time at night and it's been a significant life improvement. Sometimes I'll sit in the living room with my family and work while they watch TV, which still feels like quality family time.

sbov 8y ago
Yeah, I just cut my gaming time. It has actually been a net benefit to time with the wife, because instead of being holed up in my office with my desktop computer, I'm on the couch with my laptop while she watches TV.
- rooam-dev 8y ago
  Yes, because that counts as spend time with the wife
  - dwags 8y ago
    time spent around the wife counts dude
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      This dude is downvoted but definitely just hanging out with your spouse counts. The availability and comfort of physical presence is a thing. It isn't all the big moments. There's definitely a lot more of just time spent together.
      - rooam-dev 8y ago
        So, the guy cut on gaming and working late at the office to be able to do side project, which has a side effect of being around his spouse. It is better than nothing, but not something to be proud of. A side project is still "gaming", just easier to take breaks.
    - rooam-dev 8y ago
      Of course it counts, but not as _with her_ just around, which is different imho.
  - sbov 8y ago
    We talk about what she's watching and what I'm working on. It's not like I put headphones on and ignore my surroundings. And it's definitely not the same as being in two completely different rooms with little to no interactions.
    - rooam-dev 8y ago
      I don't think you can work and spend time together at the same time. Can you text and drive? :)
  - sigstoat 8y ago
    what counts is between them, and doesn't require the approval of internet randos.
- scriptkiddy 8y ago
  I do the same thing. Luckily, my desktop is in the living room, so I don't have to work on a laptop.

diminoten 8y ago

I'm just looking for any/every way to make the technical interviews I have to do as painless as possible. Putting a project on GitHub that I spend real time on and believe demonstrates my skills as an engineer feels intuitively like an activity that might do that. But you're right, it's not really about filling up time that's otherwise empty, it's really about making trades with the other time-filling things I'd like to do because the value of having a side project temporarily outweighs the value of spending time with my family.

brightball 8y ago

Agreed entirely. It's the same as hiring somebody out of college who had a job all throughout vs somebody who didn't and was involved in a lot of various organizations. The involvement is great at all, but if you've graduated while working it shows great time management too. The side projects are most valuable for conveying desire to learn / solve problems, which is perhaps the most critical trait for successful developer. At the same time, if your job already gives you a chance to showcase that, the side project isn't that big of a deal. The key is just looking for that desire to learn to show through in the candidate. I've seen it from side projects where the side project showed experience (Ruby) that the primary job (.NET) did not, I've seen it from crazy detail and excitement in explaining how you solved a boring low level problem, etc. There are many roads to surfacing that in an interview. When it shows, I'm currently batting 1.000 on the quality of hires though.

austincheney 8y ago

Businesses always claim to value developer productivity, but this is rarely accurate. Usually it’s the stellar opposite of productive despite what they claimed during hiring. Honestly, if they really let me take the gloves off I could easily replace 4-8 other developers. I am not saying that due to arrogance or some delusion. I just value other qualities than most other developers. Usually it’s not that I am fast or anything impressive but that the company is a drowning self-licking ice cream cone. Things get much faster when you get rid of all the framework bullshit, unnecessary process, and focus purely on business requirements and smallest possible delivery. Most of the bullshit (the stuff really slowing you down) that’s in place isn’t there because the business wants it, but because the developers want it. These are things you realize when managing a side project because your time is important to you and the person you answer to is yourself. What’s super frustrating is how awesome that always sounds in an interview and how much the hiring team really appreciates those concerns and that level of honesty. Then once you get the job it’s just the same old slow safety mitten insanity as everywhere else.

news_to_me 8y ago
> Most of the bullshit (the stuff really slowing you down) that’s in place isn’t there because the business wants it, but because the developers want it. Do you have examples of this? It sounds contrary to my experience.
- throwawaymlc 8y ago
  I've often seen developers invent elaborate JIRA workflows and pre-checkin validation workflows that slow development to a glacial pace. Also, JIRA / other ticketing workflows can take on a life of their own - at some point, many developers seem to realize that it's easier to describe defects and potential fixes, spend time categorizing, prioritizing, assigning tickets for doing things than it is to ever actually do them.
- austincheney 8y ago
  Here are some examples: * spaces versus tabs and then rejecting a code commit because of white space or other draconian rules not related to any business justification. * Whether or not a code update performs actions in certain ways, such as specified methods over other methods, without a valid business justification. Normally this appears to be some manner of code style rule. * Rejecting code that uses functions or makes use of lexical scope instead of OOP. * Rejecting code that doesn't make use of the framework even when that particular existing code file doesn't make use of the framework. * Rejecting code that bypasses the framework even though it is a new effort in new files, thus no regression, and has supporting tests. * Rejecting code because the diff is intimidating. * really long build cycles so that a developer can use their favorite framework or tool * A minor tiny module that requires a million dependencies sets off a warning or conflict in your code at build time and requires you to dive under the hood even though the problem is exposed from some horrid dependency. --- If I thought about this more I am sure I could come up with a bunch more. The business never comes to you and mandates you use a popular new JavaScript framework or that the test environment tests for code style and white space. The business doesn't care about this unnecessary stupidity especially if it makes other business requirements, such as security or accessibility, more challenging. The business cares about reducing expenses, retaining users, not getting sued, and generating revenue. You can justify the stupidity with all manner of technical reasons, but in the end does it allow you to perform simple updates in minutes or days? As a developer you are an expense to the business and not a driver of revenue. If you have to justify your limited productivity with a bunch of technical nonsense you are a financial liability.

adwww 8y ago

Why does this apply almost uniquely to programmers, and not other professions though? Aside from a handful of doctors giving up their holidays to work for MSF or similar overseas, nobody expects lawyers to do pro-bono work in their evenings, or teachers to volunteer spare time teaching different age groups, or whatever the analog might be. Same with training, almost all other jobs give you time for training, but for programming learning new technology is somehow something you should be teaching yourself in your spare time.

jonfw 8y ago
It's very circular. You're expected to code in your spare time because your peers code in their spare time. Your peers code in their spare time because it's expected of them. Also- doctors and lawyers better be doing stuff in their spare time. They only get paid when they're working with patients. I sure as hell don't want a doctor who hasn't read a new study since he left medical school.
mrfusion 8y ago
Plumbers should fix clogged toilets in their spare time.
ascar 8y ago
> Same with training, almost all other jobs give you time for training, but for programming learning new technology is somehow something you should be teaching yourself in your spare time. Maybe it's your company? All companies I worked for so far allowed or even encouraged learning during paid work hours. Even an hour per day. Not something like learning a new language, but stuff like reading up on new framework/tools/architecture, how systems of other teams work or the inner workings of their programming language of choice. Basically anything that could proof useful later.
- awild 8y ago
  This is very true. I have a colleague who is changing careers and while his lack of knowledge frustrates me from time to time, he is willing to learn, but instead of reading git manuals and bash tutorials at work he had made a deal with management, that he will do overtime now so that he can go home earlier to learn that stuff. And it's all the most basic stuff without which the colleague really wouldn't be able to do their job. (I would honestly not have hired them for their current position but I can't judge).