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I've been following this somewhat because I learned about Tock, a Chicago startup founded by one of the Co-Founders/Owners of the Alinea restaurant. [1] Their

by bschne 8y ago

I've been following this somewhat because I learned about Tock, a Chicago startup founded by one of the Co-Founders/Owners of the Alinea restaurant. [1] Their founder Nick Kokonas is quite interesting and seems to have a bit of an ongoing fight with OpenTable, Tock even built a tool where restaurants can analyze if they're paying too much for OpenTable's services [2]. If it interests you, check out his interview on Tim Ferris' podcast, it's well worth the listen. [3] [1] https://www.exploretock.com/join/ https://www.exploretock.com/join/ [2] https://medium.com/tock/weve-built-a-website-to-check-if-you-are-overpaying-for-opentable-there-s-a-40-chance-you-are-b5fe1c8c81aa https://medium.com/tock/weve-built-a-website-to-check-if-you... [3] https://tim.blog/2018/10/18/nick-kokonas/ https://tim.blog/2018/10/18/nick-kokonas/

DannyBee 8y ago
Tock's cofounder is Brian Fitzpatrick, who founded Google's Chicago office (and the data liberation front). Great guy. https://www.red-bean.com/fitz/bio/ https://www.red-bean.com/fitz/bio/ Fight is probably a strong word. They just think people are not really analyzing whether they are actually getting value for it :)
- jldugger 8y ago
  > who founded Google's Chicago office (and the data liberation front). And also SVN. And apparently Apple, developing webapps, which I really don't understand since it doesn't seem like they have a (any really) strong corporate consulting arm.
lisper 8y ago
I hate Tock, and my wife and I will not eat at any restaurant that requires that we use them. Eating out is not just about acquiring food. It's a social ritual, and paying for the meal at the end is an essential part of that ritual, the culmination of mutual trust between a diner and a restaurateur. Tock's pay-up-front business model destroys that trust. The not-so-subtle message to the customer is, "We don't trust you to pay." But that knife cuts both ways: if you get my money up front, why should I trust you not to cut corners on the meal that you provide? I get that restaurants have to protect themselves against no-shows, and I have no problem handing over a credit card number so that they can charge a no-show fee. But paying the entire cost of the meal up front is a line that I won't cross. There are too many excellent alternatives out there still doing business the old fashioned way, thank God.
- DannyBee 8y ago
  Tock's business model is about people who make reservations and don't show up (or try to resell the reservations, etc), which is a huge issue for restaurants. It's also about who the relationship is with. OpenTable, as you can see, believes the relationship is between you and OpenTable. Tock generally believes it is between you and the restaurant. It's not at all about whether you can pay or not.
  - lisper 8y ago
    You must not have read my comment all the way through, because I explicitly said: "I get that restaurants have to protect themselves against no-shows, and I have no problem handing over a credit card number so that they can charge a no-show fee." > It's not at all about whether you can pay or not. I never said it was.
    - DannyBee 8y ago
      I did read your comment. I just found it mostly not worth responding to your suggestion, honestly. But let's do it anyway. ""I get that restaurants have to protect themselves against no-shows, and I have no problem handing over a credit card number so that they can charge a no-show fee." " Did you ever consider this may not be at all a viable product model, given it's been tried and failed miserably? IE your solution may not be a solution that works. If your level of trust is that you expect restaurants to cut corners if you pay up front, i guess i'd suggest not letting other human beings prepare food for you, since they already paid in advance for the ingredients, and so they already have an incentive to cut corners in your model regardless of Tock or not. Put another way, before you eat, you have already cost them money whether you eat there or not, and whether you use Tock or not. Additionally, basically all menus are fixed price and the tips don't got to the restaurant. So there is no reason people will cut corners more due to tock.
      - lisper 8y ago
        > it's been tried and failed miserably That's news to me. Restaurants that I eat at do this all the time. Reference? (I have a very hard time believing that now-show fees fail while pay-up-front succeeds. It makes no sense that consumers would accept the latter but not the former.)
zone411 8y ago
I like Tock because it encourages efficiency through dynamic pricing. A 5 PM Tuesday dinner should not cost as much as an 8 PM Saturday dinner.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Which is a large part of why lunches tend to be cheaper and happy hours exist. (Though the prevalence of happy hour food deals seems to vary a lot by location.) OTOH, people don't necessarily like to have their noses rubbed in the fact that there's only a loose correlation between meal price and the restaurant's variable ingredients cost.

by bschne 8y ago

DannyBee 8y ago

Tock's cofounder is Brian Fitzpatrick, who founded Google's Chicago office (and the data liberation front). Great guy. https://www.red-bean.com/fitz/bio/ https://www.red-bean.com/fitz/bio/ Fight is probably a strong word. They just think people are not really analyzing whether they are actually getting value for it :)

jldugger 8y ago
> who founded Google's Chicago office (and the data liberation front). And also SVN. And apparently Apple, developing webapps, which I really don't understand since it doesn't seem like they have a (any really) strong corporate consulting arm.

lisper 8y ago

I hate Tock, and my wife and I will not eat at any restaurant that requires that we use them. Eating out is not just about acquiring food. It's a social ritual, and paying for the meal at the end is an essential part of that ritual, the culmination of mutual trust between a diner and a restaurateur. Tock's pay-up-front business model destroys that trust. The not-so-subtle message to the customer is, "We don't trust you to pay." But that knife cuts both ways: if you get my money up front, why should I trust you not to cut corners on the meal that you provide? I get that restaurants have to protect themselves against no-shows, and I have no problem handing over a credit card number so that they can charge a no-show fee. But paying the entire cost of the meal up front is a line that I won't cross. There are too many excellent alternatives out there still doing business the old fashioned way, thank God.

DannyBee 8y ago
Tock's business model is about people who make reservations and don't show up (or try to resell the reservations, etc), which is a huge issue for restaurants. It's also about who the relationship is with. OpenTable, as you can see, believes the relationship is between you and OpenTable. Tock generally believes it is between you and the restaurant. It's not at all about whether you can pay or not.
- lisper 8y ago
  You must not have read my comment all the way through, because I explicitly said: "I get that restaurants have to protect themselves against no-shows, and I have no problem handing over a credit card number so that they can charge a no-show fee." > It's not at all about whether you can pay or not. I never said it was.
  - DannyBee 8y ago
    I did read your comment. I just found it mostly not worth responding to your suggestion, honestly. But let's do it anyway. ""I get that restaurants have to protect themselves against no-shows, and I have no problem handing over a credit card number so that they can charge a no-show fee." " Did you ever consider this may not be at all a viable product model, given it's been tried and failed miserably? IE your solution may not be a solution that works. If your level of trust is that you expect restaurants to cut corners if you pay up front, i guess i'd suggest not letting other human beings prepare food for you, since they already paid in advance for the ingredients, and so they already have an incentive to cut corners in your model regardless of Tock or not. Put another way, before you eat, you have already cost them money whether you eat there or not, and whether you use Tock or not. Additionally, basically all menus are fixed price and the tips don't got to the restaurant. So there is no reason people will cut corners more due to tock.
    - lisper 8y ago
      > it's been tried and failed miserably That's news to me. Restaurants that I eat at do this all the time. Reference? (I have a very hard time believing that now-show fees fail while pay-up-front succeeds. It makes no sense that consumers would accept the latter but not the former.)

zone411 8y ago

I like Tock because it encourages efficiency through dynamic pricing. A 5 PM Tuesday dinner should not cost as much as an 8 PM Saturday dinner.

ghaff 8y ago
Which is a large part of why lunches tend to be cheaper and happy hours exist. (Though the prevalence of happy hour food deals seems to vary a lot by location.) OTOH, people don't necessarily like to have their noses rubbed in the fact that there's only a loose correlation between meal price and the restaurant's variable ingredients cost.