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It is so weird that the iPad Air and iPad mini only support the old Apple Pencil. The iPad mini was my favorite incarnation of the iPad line when it came out, a

It is so weird that the iPad Air and iPad mini only support the old Apple Pencil. The iPad mini was my favorite incarnation of the iPad line when it came out, and I was considering getting one again, but I have no interest in needing two different kinds of iPad pencil. Apple keeps creating and extending these arbitrary transition periods. The old Apple Pencil should be in the past. Instead we have an entire other generation with it now. This sucks for developers too who have to continue designing for old technology. Same with lightning ports. Now every iPad accessory needs a USB-C version and lightning port version.

epynonymous 8y ago
totally agree, the main gripes are the first generation pencil and the screen bezel, only the cpu and screen were upgraded, such a small incremental change.
Isamu 8y ago
I believe the new Pencil requires the hardware upgrade on the pad to make it work. It seems like with this refresh they were more concerned with keeping the cost in a range that makes sense for these models. And reducing the price for the iPad Air may prove to be crucial to help boost sales which have been in a slight decline for the iPad line as a whole.
- jxdxbx 8y ago
  Not just in the screen, but it would need the inductive charging magnet system, which seems likely to be pretty expensive. The new iPads do work with the Logitech Crayon, however, which is good for education. The Apple Pencil is designed to be used one-per-device but the Crayon is more easily shared.
baobrain 8y ago
Keeping the lightning port is what really jumped out at me. Now some iPads are going to have USB C and others are going to have lightning, all under the same umbrella product of the iPad. What is even worse (!) is that the iPhones and iPads still ship with a USB A to lightning cable, meaning even users inside the Apple ecosystem need a USB C/thunderbolt dongle with usb A ports to connect their iPhones/iPads to their computers. I have no idea how this decision was approved without thinking about this.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > to connect their iPhones/iPads to their computers Why do you need to connect your iPad to your computer? I have never connected mine - everything goes through the cloud or Bluetooth. Are you developing apps on it? That's a pretty niche use-case.
  - mattdesl 8y ago
    Charging, transferring photos and MP3s. Granted many people are using wireless (airdrop, iCloud etc) but not all.
  - hobs 8y ago
    Because they want to do a manual backup instead of just iCloud? Because it was initially designed and delivered that way? Because they like manually managing music and videos? etc
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      I think these are pretty obtuse use-cases these days for the vast majority of people. I also manage videos and things but I do it via the cloud like most people. You may disagree with a that but it explains why they went that route - it wasn't a case of them not thinking.
      - baobrain 8y ago
        Is wanting to connect to your Macbook to charge your phone an obtuse use case? At the very least apple should have shipped with a USB-C to lightning cable, not USB-A.
        Bud 8y ago
        Why? You keep repeating this without ever defending your argument. As of right now, and in the near future, more Mac users have USB-A. There is simply no compelling reason to make this change unless you absolutely need extra features provided uniquely by USB-C. And this device doesn't need anything like that.
jimbokun 8y ago
Starting to feel like Ballmer era Microsoft. Unforced errors like this seem to be occurring more and more often. Seemingly minor pragmatic issues that will prevent many users from upgrading or leaving the ecosystem altogether, that could easily be avoided.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Actually for old timers it feels like the old Apple, just before Jobs came back.
  - zymhan 8y ago
    i.e. the unprofitable and future-less Apple
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      The big difference is that they are swimming in money, but even that doesn't last forever.
- scarface74 8y ago
  The 1st generation iPad was woefully lacking RAM (256MB) even though the iPhone 4 that came out 3 months later with the same SOC had 512Mb. That led to the iPad being unusable with iOS 5 that came out 2 years later and unsupported after that. The iPhone of the same generation was supported through iOS 7. The 3rd generation iPad was heavy, slow, and had horrible battery life and was discontinued six months later as they transistionef to a better processor and the lightning port. So what are tablet users going to leave the iPad for? All of the great Android tablets available?
  - jsight 8y ago
    > So what are tablet users going to leave the iPad for? All of the great Android tablets available? Yeah, this is the sad thing about the current situation. The Apple lineup is a mess, but everyone's "competitive" devices are even messier. I have only Android phones, but my tablet is an ipad.
tolmasky 8y ago
These products just feel like “component pipeline optimization” instead of working backwards from customer needs. There should be 3 iPads, all with the same form factor, same connectors (can’t believe I even have to specify this): small medium large, and they should be called iPad mini, iPad, and iPad Pro. The iPad should serve the vast majority of the market. The pro should really feel like it’s for Pros. The mini should feel like it cannot be beat on a hike taking nature photos. Stories based on use, not price. The way I imagine them talking about iPad uses cases instead is: “imagine you want to buy an iPad, but you only have $399. Boom: iPad mini, the perfect fit!”
- basch 8y ago
  they should use the same words for all their devices. they need to decide between Mini and Air or make one of those the "regular." Macbook, iPad, and iPhone: Mini, Air, Plus? Air, nothing, Pro? Why is it a Macbook Pro and an iPhone Plus and then a Max? They need one word and one world only for big and powerful, not 3.
  - jonfw 8y ago
    Same thing that happened the first time Steve Jobs left. Apple is moving towards being just another consumer electronics company. Unremarkable products and competitive pricing.
- jxdxbx 8y ago
  Having the cheaper iPads use lightning makes sense as long as the phones keep using it. I personally would love to see USB C across the board but I think normal people would scream bloody murder if Apple tried to phase out lightning.
askafriend 8y ago
This is a supply chain optimization and also the reason they can keep the costs low for these products. Cost is important here and the whole reason this product line exists. It’s a mirror of their iPhone strategy where they sell last years model for cheaper. They’re using old components and designs where they think it makes sense, but are being uncompromising about the compute power (e.g. A12 Bionic, AR capabilities). It means they can give lower-end customer what they want, without compromising the software capabilities of the devices or ultimately the margins of their business. It makes sense as a strategy and obviously comes with trade offs which it seems like they’re willing to make. I mean, the old pencil isn’t THAT old. The new iPad Pros and new Pencil were announced only months ago.
- tolmasky 8y ago
  Edit: inlining the comment here instead since this turned into a conversation These products just feel like “component pipeline optimization” instead of working backwards from customer needs. There should be 3 iPads, all with the same form factor, same connectors (can’t believe I even have to specify this): small medium large, and they should be called iPad mini, iPad, and iPad Pro. The iPad should serve the vast majority of the market. The pro should really feel like it’s for Pros. The mini should feel like it cannot be beat on a hike taking nature photos. Stories based on use, not price. The way I imagine them talking about iPad uses cases instead is: “imagine you want to buy an iPad, but you only have $399. Boom: iPad mini, the perfect fit!”
  - askafriend 8y ago
    I welcome your take! And thanks for adding it here so people can contrast them. One thing I think it’s important to remember is that Apple today isn’t the same small, quirky company it was in 2007 when the iPhone came out. It’s now one of the largest companies on the planet with a global customer base of over a billion people in hundreds of countries. They need to run a different strategy and they need to have more product choice at different price points. I think they’re navigating it the best they can - and obviously no business is without mistakes. They will make mistakes (iPhone 5C) and that’s OK. However, trying to pattern match Apple’s decisions from the 90s and comparing them to decisions today is just poor thinking imo. That’s what people in this thread (not you @tolmasky, I’m just on a tangent now) seem to be trying to do. The Ballmer comparisons are poor as well, imo.
jbigelow76 8y ago
The new pencil uses inductive charging (and magnets). Adding that to the mini and the non-Pro iPads would drive their prices up (assuming Apple would insist on maintaining the existing margins) when these are supposed to be more budget oriented models.
- gnicholas 8y ago
  Yep, and a redesign of the edge of the iPad, which would not be trivial. Of course, this would also make the iPads look much more like the Pro, which they try to position as the premium model.
- torstenvl 8y ago
  They aren't "supposed to be more budget oriented models." There is nothing to suggest that, and it's frustrating that Apple is treating them as such - as are some commentators such as yourself. Step back and think for a moment. How absurd is it that, suddenly, bigger = better? Not just for technical reasons but for marketing reasons? I think it demonstrates just how far gone Apple is. There's a Steve Jobs quote in the Walter Isaacson biography to the effect of Tim Cook not being a product guy. Truest thing I've ever read.
reaperducer 8y ago
It is so weird that the iPad Air and iPad mini only support the old Apple Pencil Perhaps it's because the new Apple Pencil charges by docking with a host iPad, and there's no place on an iPad Air or iPad mini to put a dock.
- whywhywhywhy 8y ago
  The real issue is the Apple Pencil should have been what the "Apple Pencil (2nd Generation)" was from the start. The Surface line made it obvious years ago that the magnetic docking was essential. Would have made much more sense to wait than to have two different pencils not cross compatible at all, I mean even if you bought the first iPad Pro and the Pencil then decided to upgrade to the next iPad Pro you can't use the old pencil with the new iPad with the excuse of it needing a lightning port to pair when plenty of other pens exist using wireless technology that just have a button to kick them into pairing mode. For a company that claims to care about e-waste I find all this ridiculous.
  - asark 8y ago
    The 1st gen Pencil's charging/pairing plug is ridiculous. It's like someone at Apple made a joke charging interface and that was accidentally sent to production. Lose the dumb little magnetic cap, which you have to leave entirely off of it when it's charging, and it's just a matter of time until the plug gets broken. Lose the even smaller gender changer and you can't charge the damn thing without plugging it into your ipad, a configuration that looks made to cause problems (i.e. break something) and by the way makes your ipad unusable while it's happening. Swapping the gender on the Pencil's connector and making pairing the operation that requires an adapter would have been an instant, major improvement, but the whole thing needed a re-think from scratch. Side note: can you seriously not use the original pencil with new ipads, even with a cable adapter of some sort to pair them? I was planning to pick up a used or refurb of the current gen when the next one comes out, but that might throw a wrench in those plans, unless I luck out and find one used including the new pencil, like I did with my Gen 1 ipad pro.
bonestamp2 8y ago
This seems like a clear signal that the next iPhone will continue to have a lightning port. They were so fast to go all-in with USB-C on the macbook line because it meant they could make the computer thinner/lighter. But the lightning port already gives them that on the iOS line. It's now obvious that they don't care about standardizing as much as they claimed to back when they introduced the 2016 macbook pro.

epynonymous 8y ago

totally agree, the main gripes are the first generation pencil and the screen bezel, only the cpu and screen were upgraded, such a small incremental change.

Isamu 8y ago

I believe the new Pencil requires the hardware upgrade on the pad to make it work. It seems like with this refresh they were more concerned with keeping the cost in a range that makes sense for these models. And reducing the price for the iPad Air may prove to be crucial to help boost sales which have been in a slight decline for the iPad line as a whole.

jxdxbx 8y ago
Not just in the screen, but it would need the inductive charging magnet system, which seems likely to be pretty expensive. The new iPads do work with the Logitech Crayon, however, which is good for education. The Apple Pencil is designed to be used one-per-device but the Crayon is more easily shared.

baobrain 8y ago

Keeping the lightning port is what really jumped out at me. Now some iPads are going to have USB C and others are going to have lightning, all under the same umbrella product of the iPad. What is even worse (!) is that the iPhones and iPads still ship with a USB A to lightning cable, meaning even users inside the Apple ecosystem need a USB C/thunderbolt dongle with usb A ports to connect their iPhones/iPads to their computers. I have no idea how this decision was approved without thinking about this.

chrisseaton 8y ago
> to connect their iPhones/iPads to their computers Why do you need to connect your iPad to your computer? I have never connected mine - everything goes through the cloud or Bluetooth. Are you developing apps on it? That's a pretty niche use-case.
- mattdesl 8y ago
  Charging, transferring photos and MP3s. Granted many people are using wireless (airdrop, iCloud etc) but not all.
- hobs 8y ago
  Because they want to do a manual backup instead of just iCloud? Because it was initially designed and delivered that way? Because they like manually managing music and videos? etc
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    I think these are pretty obtuse use-cases these days for the vast majority of people. I also manage videos and things but I do it via the cloud like most people. You may disagree with a that but it explains why they went that route - it wasn't a case of them not thinking.
    - baobrain 8y ago
      Is wanting to connect to your Macbook to charge your phone an obtuse use case? At the very least apple should have shipped with a USB-C to lightning cable, not USB-A.
      - Bud 8y ago
        Why? You keep repeating this without ever defending your argument. As of right now, and in the near future, more Mac users have USB-A. There is simply no compelling reason to make this change unless you absolutely need extra features provided uniquely by USB-C. And this device doesn't need anything like that.

jimbokun 8y ago

Starting to feel like Ballmer era Microsoft. Unforced errors like this seem to be occurring more and more often. Seemingly minor pragmatic issues that will prevent many users from upgrading or leaving the ecosystem altogether, that could easily be avoided.

pjmlp 8y ago
Actually for old timers it feels like the old Apple, just before Jobs came back.
- zymhan 8y ago
  i.e. the unprofitable and future-less Apple
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    The big difference is that they are swimming in money, but even that doesn't last forever.
scarface74 8y ago
The 1st generation iPad was woefully lacking RAM (256MB) even though the iPhone 4 that came out 3 months later with the same SOC had 512Mb. That led to the iPad being unusable with iOS 5 that came out 2 years later and unsupported after that. The iPhone of the same generation was supported through iOS 7. The 3rd generation iPad was heavy, slow, and had horrible battery life and was discontinued six months later as they transistionef to a better processor and the lightning port. So what are tablet users going to leave the iPad for? All of the great Android tablets available?
- jsight 8y ago
  > So what are tablet users going to leave the iPad for? All of the great Android tablets available? Yeah, this is the sad thing about the current situation. The Apple lineup is a mess, but everyone's "competitive" devices are even messier. I have only Android phones, but my tablet is an ipad.

tolmasky 8y ago

These products just feel like “component pipeline optimization” instead of working backwards from customer needs. There should be 3 iPads, all with the same form factor, same connectors (can’t believe I even have to specify this): small medium large, and they should be called iPad mini, iPad, and iPad Pro. The iPad should serve the vast majority of the market. The pro should really feel like it’s for Pros. The mini should feel like it cannot be beat on a hike taking nature photos. Stories based on use, not price. The way I imagine them talking about iPad uses cases instead is: “imagine you want to buy an iPad, but you only have $399. Boom: iPad mini, the perfect fit!”

basch 8y ago
they should use the same words for all their devices. they need to decide between Mini and Air or make one of those the "regular." Macbook, iPad, and iPhone: Mini, Air, Plus? Air, nothing, Pro? Why is it a Macbook Pro and an iPhone Plus and then a Max? They need one word and one world only for big and powerful, not 3.
- jonfw 8y ago
  Same thing that happened the first time Steve Jobs left. Apple is moving towards being just another consumer electronics company. Unremarkable products and competitive pricing.
jxdxbx 8y ago
Having the cheaper iPads use lightning makes sense as long as the phones keep using it. I personally would love to see USB C across the board but I think normal people would scream bloody murder if Apple tried to phase out lightning.

askafriend 8y ago

This is a supply chain optimization and also the reason they can keep the costs low for these products. Cost is important here and the whole reason this product line exists. It’s a mirror of their iPhone strategy where they sell last years model for cheaper. They’re using old components and designs where they think it makes sense, but are being uncompromising about the compute power (e.g. A12 Bionic, AR capabilities). It means they can give lower-end customer what they want, without compromising the software capabilities of the devices or ultimately the margins of their business. It makes sense as a strategy and obviously comes with trade offs which it seems like they’re willing to make. I mean, the old pencil isn’t THAT old. The new iPad Pros and new Pencil were announced only months ago.

tolmasky 8y ago
Edit: inlining the comment here instead since this turned into a conversation These products just feel like “component pipeline optimization” instead of working backwards from customer needs. There should be 3 iPads, all with the same form factor, same connectors (can’t believe I even have to specify this): small medium large, and they should be called iPad mini, iPad, and iPad Pro. The iPad should serve the vast majority of the market. The pro should really feel like it’s for Pros. The mini should feel like it cannot be beat on a hike taking nature photos. Stories based on use, not price. The way I imagine them talking about iPad uses cases instead is: “imagine you want to buy an iPad, but you only have $399. Boom: iPad mini, the perfect fit!”
- askafriend 8y ago
  I welcome your take! And thanks for adding it here so people can contrast them. One thing I think it’s important to remember is that Apple today isn’t the same small, quirky company it was in 2007 when the iPhone came out. It’s now one of the largest companies on the planet with a global customer base of over a billion people in hundreds of countries. They need to run a different strategy and they need to have more product choice at different price points. I think they’re navigating it the best they can - and obviously no business is without mistakes. They will make mistakes (iPhone 5C) and that’s OK. However, trying to pattern match Apple’s decisions from the 90s and comparing them to decisions today is just poor thinking imo. That’s what people in this thread (not you @tolmasky, I’m just on a tangent now) seem to be trying to do. The Ballmer comparisons are poor as well, imo.

jbigelow76 8y ago

The new pencil uses inductive charging (and magnets). Adding that to the mini and the non-Pro iPads would drive their prices up (assuming Apple would insist on maintaining the existing margins) when these are supposed to be more budget oriented models.

gnicholas 8y ago
Yep, and a redesign of the edge of the iPad, which would not be trivial. Of course, this would also make the iPads look much more like the Pro, which they try to position as the premium model.
torstenvl 8y ago
They aren't "supposed to be more budget oriented models." There is nothing to suggest that, and it's frustrating that Apple is treating them as such - as are some commentators such as yourself. Step back and think for a moment. How absurd is it that, suddenly, bigger = better? Not just for technical reasons but for marketing reasons? I think it demonstrates just how far gone Apple is. There's a Steve Jobs quote in the Walter Isaacson biography to the effect of Tim Cook not being a product guy. Truest thing I've ever read.

reaperducer 8y ago

It is so weird that the iPad Air and iPad mini only support the old Apple Pencil Perhaps it's because the new Apple Pencil charges by docking with a host iPad, and there's no place on an iPad Air or iPad mini to put a dock.

whywhywhywhy 8y ago
The real issue is the Apple Pencil should have been what the "Apple Pencil (2nd Generation)" was from the start. The Surface line made it obvious years ago that the magnetic docking was essential. Would have made much more sense to wait than to have two different pencils not cross compatible at all, I mean even if you bought the first iPad Pro and the Pencil then decided to upgrade to the next iPad Pro you can't use the old pencil with the new iPad with the excuse of it needing a lightning port to pair when plenty of other pens exist using wireless technology that just have a button to kick them into pairing mode. For a company that claims to care about e-waste I find all this ridiculous.
- asark 8y ago
  The 1st gen Pencil's charging/pairing plug is ridiculous. It's like someone at Apple made a joke charging interface and that was accidentally sent to production. Lose the dumb little magnetic cap, which you have to leave entirely off of it when it's charging, and it's just a matter of time until the plug gets broken. Lose the even smaller gender changer and you can't charge the damn thing without plugging it into your ipad, a configuration that looks made to cause problems (i.e. break something) and by the way makes your ipad unusable while it's happening. Swapping the gender on the Pencil's connector and making pairing the operation that requires an adapter would have been an instant, major improvement, but the whole thing needed a re-think from scratch. Side note: can you seriously not use the original pencil with new ipads, even with a cable adapter of some sort to pair them? I was planning to pick up a used or refurb of the current gen when the next one comes out, but that might throw a wrench in those plans, unless I luck out and find one used including the new pencil, like I did with my Gen 1 ipad pro.

bonestamp2 8y ago

This seems like a clear signal that the next iPhone will continue to have a lightning port. They were so fast to go all-in with USB-C on the macbook line because it meant they could make the computer thinner/lighter. But the lightning port already gives them that on the iOS line. It's now obvious that they don't care about standardizing as much as they claimed to back when they introduced the 2016 macbook pro.