5 ms·

I've isolated MSG as a cause of sinus headaches for me, along with a handful of other foods. It is in some flavored chips, and the first few times when going ba

I've isolated MSG as a cause of sinus headaches for me, along with a handful of other foods. It is in some flavored chips, and the first few times when going back and trying to figure out what caused my headache I was surprised to see it in the ingredient list since it has such a stigma. I also run into it at kbbq places mixed in with the salt. Not saying it is bad for everyone, but it is a consistent issue for me.

ramraj07 8y ago
Not sure you've "proven" it's MSG though. Warm up some chocolate cubes, sprinkle msg and sandwich the cubes so it's in the middle. Then ask an SO to randomize and give you chocolate with or without msg every few days without telling you and note when you get headaches. My initial guess is that doing this 6-9 times you should get sufficient signal (if it's indeed true that MSG absolutely gives you headaches Everytime ) to fairly conclusively prove it.
- pmoriarty 8y ago
  Just to be clear: to be double-blind, both of you would need to not know which cubes are which until after the experiment. If the experimenter knows which are which and the subject doesn't, it's only single-blind. The disadvantage of this is that the experimenter might inadvertently reveal some clue to the subject as to which is which. That would make the experiment's conclusions more suspect than double-blind.
- gotocake 8y ago
  You’d need to administer it in such a way that you can’t detect it by taste, and as pmoriarty says, to be double blind is a further challenge. You can however modify your protocol. Instead of chocolate buy some unfilled pill capsules (very cheap) and have a friend fill half with a pinch of salt, and half with a pinch of MSG. This friend makes a note of which caps are MSG, and without informing you or your SO which is which. The friend can simply assign each cap a day, and keep the key to which day is MSG in a notebook and be revealed later. From there, follow your protocol. It’s now double-blind, and you won’t taste what it is you’re taking and have some subconscious reaction.
  - ramraj07 8y ago
    I intended to write that s/he should just swallow the chocolate to not taste what's inside but I forgot. I mean if we are gonna give this dude headaches at the least let's make it chocolate?
    - djmips 8y ago
      Bad science. Chocolate has a lot of confounding components such as Tyramine which is said to trigger migraines in the sensitive.
      - lugg 8y ago
        Which would show join the test put forward. Agree with your point but the way you got there doesn't add up.
- TACIXAT 8y ago
  I get where you're coming from but my diet is simple enough at this point that the stuff is isolated. I had sinus headaches for 23 years. I slowly cut out foods over a period of 5 years to find triggers. I eat the same thing everyday now that I know what not to eat. I do check the ingredients first now, but previously it was all reverse engineering from getting a headache to going back and seeing what I ate. I'd happily do a study in a lab, if it meant published research was going to be put out. The sinus headaches are miserable enough that I'll never be doing it just for interest. Chocolate is a no go because I've cut out sugar and caffeine as well. I mostly eat meat, non-gluten carbs, and broccoli. For MSG, I don't know about it ahead of time. If I do, I don't eat the food. For example, went to kbbq, ate some plain meat, rice, and egg, got a headache after leaving. Next time I was there I asked about MSG because it was the most likely trigger to be used. Turns out it was in the steamed egg and the salt and pepper mix. Avoided those and felt fine for multiple visits after. I think this is a blind way of discovery because I didn't have assumptions about the triggers when I started trying to figure what they were.
darkpuma 8y ago
MSG is frequently used despite it's bad rap because the people who dislike it are a vocal minority. Most people say that food prepared with MSG tastes great, unaware that MSG is in it or that some people think they should object to that.
bobthepanda 8y ago
MSG naturally occurs in naturally ripened tomatoes and some cheeses. Do you also have issues with those?
- kazinator 8y ago
  Reactions to MSG are not allergic. It's not like eating something cooked in a pot that previously had shrimp type of thing. A fairly macroscopically large dose of the stuff does something with the blood flow in veins around the head or sensitivity of nerves or something. It's not a serious medical condition, like an allergic attack; just a nuisance.
  - krageon 8y ago
    Can you provide some studies that prove the effects you are describing? I have definitely looked, but the only credible studies I've found conclude there is absolutely no way to get an adverse response unless you are eating multiple grams of pure MSG on a completely empty stomach with no other food. That is the "best case" scenario, there's plenty of studies concluding they can't find any evidence at all.
    - TACIXAT 8y ago
      Unfortunately not everything has been studied. For my case, there are a lot of celiacs that report sinus headaches [1], but I can't find a single paper on it. Is it a real problem? Definitely, I would love to be able to eat whatever. Can I point to research? Nope. 1. https://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/coeliac-disease-sinusitis https://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/coeliac-disease-sinusit...
    - equalunique 8y ago
      You want a credible study? Eat a teaspoon of MSG & try not to have a migraine.
      - bobthepanda 8y ago
        That would be approximately the same as trying to eat only a tablespoon of salt. Which would definitely cause headaches, at least from dehydration. You're only supposed to use a half teaspoon to flavor six whole servings of soup. It's an incredibly strong flavor enhancer, and is really not recommended for solo consumption.
MertsA 8y ago
All you've isolated is the placebo effect unless you react that same way to all glutamate containing foods. Chicken broth has tons of glutamate in it, if chicken broth doesn't cause your headaches then neither does MSG. And if you're thinking that the glutamate in chicken broth or other foods could be reacting differently because it's not monosodium glutamate, that's not possible because the instant MSG is dissolved you no longer have MSG, you have sodium ions and glutamate ions. That's chemically the same as the sodium ions and glutamate ions in chicken broth. Glutamate is present in everything from tomatoes, to mushrooms, to parmesan cheese. Anecdotes are not evidence, and the evidence is clear.
- kazinator 8y ago
  So if someone gets drunk from a few beers, is that a placebo effect? I mean, sauerkraut has a bit of alcohol in it, and look, they aren't getting drunk from that! It can't be the alcohol. Maybe it's the hops? > Glutamate is present in everything from tomatoes, to mushrooms, to parmesan cheese. Well, glutamic acid, an amino acid found in proteins, is abundant; that is not the same as free glutamate.
  - MertsA 8y ago
    I get what you're saying but that's why I used chicken broth as an example as that has tons of free glutamate as well as sodium to go with it. As for free vs. bound glutamate, if it's bound glutamate it's not going to contribute to taste, if you can taste that umami flavor then it's free glutamate you're tasting. (side note, glutamic acid on it's own will dissociate in water just like any other ionic bond, but I get what you mean) And while glutamine or glutamic acid in a protein isn't digested as quickly as free glutamate, it still gets hydrolyzed and given that "MSG syndrome" supposedly lasts for a while it stands to reason that even a slow release over the period of a day should still trigger symptomes given that there's generally a lot more bound glutamate than free glutamate. But a little free glutamate goes a long way, there's no chinese restaurants just dumping MSG in by the cup, that would be way too over seasoned. I use MSG on a lot of dishes myself and I'll use amounts that have less free glutamate in them than in some other common foods.
jayd16 8y ago
I will say I've noticed I get a headache after Korean bbq but I'm pretty sure its the beer and salt.

ramraj07 8y ago

Not sure you've "proven" it's MSG though. Warm up some chocolate cubes, sprinkle msg and sandwich the cubes so it's in the middle. Then ask an SO to randomize and give you chocolate with or without msg every few days without telling you and note when you get headaches. My initial guess is that doing this 6-9 times you should get sufficient signal (if it's indeed true that MSG absolutely gives you headaches Everytime ) to fairly conclusively prove it.

pmoriarty 8y ago
Just to be clear: to be double-blind, both of you would need to not know which cubes are which until after the experiment. If the experimenter knows which are which and the subject doesn't, it's only single-blind. The disadvantage of this is that the experimenter might inadvertently reveal some clue to the subject as to which is which. That would make the experiment's conclusions more suspect than double-blind.
gotocake 8y ago
You’d need to administer it in such a way that you can’t detect it by taste, and as pmoriarty says, to be double blind is a further challenge. You can however modify your protocol. Instead of chocolate buy some unfilled pill capsules (very cheap) and have a friend fill half with a pinch of salt, and half with a pinch of MSG. This friend makes a note of which caps are MSG, and without informing you or your SO which is which. The friend can simply assign each cap a day, and keep the key to which day is MSG in a notebook and be revealed later. From there, follow your protocol. It’s now double-blind, and you won’t taste what it is you’re taking and have some subconscious reaction.
- ramraj07 8y ago
  I intended to write that s/he should just swallow the chocolate to not taste what's inside but I forgot. I mean if we are gonna give this dude headaches at the least let's make it chocolate?
  - djmips 8y ago
    Bad science. Chocolate has a lot of confounding components such as Tyramine which is said to trigger migraines in the sensitive.
    - lugg 8y ago
      Which would show join the test put forward. Agree with your point but the way you got there doesn't add up.
TACIXAT 8y ago
I get where you're coming from but my diet is simple enough at this point that the stuff is isolated. I had sinus headaches for 23 years. I slowly cut out foods over a period of 5 years to find triggers. I eat the same thing everyday now that I know what not to eat. I do check the ingredients first now, but previously it was all reverse engineering from getting a headache to going back and seeing what I ate. I'd happily do a study in a lab, if it meant published research was going to be put out. The sinus headaches are miserable enough that I'll never be doing it just for interest. Chocolate is a no go because I've cut out sugar and caffeine as well. I mostly eat meat, non-gluten carbs, and broccoli. For MSG, I don't know about it ahead of time. If I do, I don't eat the food. For example, went to kbbq, ate some plain meat, rice, and egg, got a headache after leaving. Next time I was there I asked about MSG because it was the most likely trigger to be used. Turns out it was in the steamed egg and the salt and pepper mix. Avoided those and felt fine for multiple visits after. I think this is a blind way of discovery because I didn't have assumptions about the triggers when I started trying to figure what they were.

darkpuma 8y ago

MSG is frequently used despite it's bad rap because the people who dislike it are a vocal minority. Most people say that food prepared with MSG tastes great, unaware that MSG is in it or that some people think they should object to that.

bobthepanda 8y ago

MSG naturally occurs in naturally ripened tomatoes and some cheeses. Do you also have issues with those?

kazinator 8y ago
Reactions to MSG are not allergic. It's not like eating something cooked in a pot that previously had shrimp type of thing. A fairly macroscopically large dose of the stuff does something with the blood flow in veins around the head or sensitivity of nerves or something. It's not a serious medical condition, like an allergic attack; just a nuisance.
- krageon 8y ago
  Can you provide some studies that prove the effects you are describing? I have definitely looked, but the only credible studies I've found conclude there is absolutely no way to get an adverse response unless you are eating multiple grams of pure MSG on a completely empty stomach with no other food. That is the "best case" scenario, there's plenty of studies concluding they can't find any evidence at all.
  - TACIXAT 8y ago
    Unfortunately not everything has been studied. For my case, there are a lot of celiacs that report sinus headaches [1], but I can't find a single paper on it. Is it a real problem? Definitely, I would love to be able to eat whatever. Can I point to research? Nope. 1. https://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/coeliac-disease-sinusitis https://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/coeliac-disease-sinusit...
  - equalunique 8y ago
    You want a credible study? Eat a teaspoon of MSG & try not to have a migraine.
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      That would be approximately the same as trying to eat only a tablespoon of salt. Which would definitely cause headaches, at least from dehydration. You're only supposed to use a half teaspoon to flavor six whole servings of soup. It's an incredibly strong flavor enhancer, and is really not recommended for solo consumption.

MertsA 8y ago

All you've isolated is the placebo effect unless you react that same way to all glutamate containing foods. Chicken broth has tons of glutamate in it, if chicken broth doesn't cause your headaches then neither does MSG. And if you're thinking that the glutamate in chicken broth or other foods could be reacting differently because it's not monosodium glutamate, that's not possible because the instant MSG is dissolved you no longer have MSG, you have sodium ions and glutamate ions. That's chemically the same as the sodium ions and glutamate ions in chicken broth. Glutamate is present in everything from tomatoes, to mushrooms, to parmesan cheese. Anecdotes are not evidence, and the evidence is clear.

kazinator 8y ago
So if someone gets drunk from a few beers, is that a placebo effect? I mean, sauerkraut has a bit of alcohol in it, and look, they aren't getting drunk from that! It can't be the alcohol. Maybe it's the hops? > Glutamate is present in everything from tomatoes, to mushrooms, to parmesan cheese. Well, glutamic acid, an amino acid found in proteins, is abundant; that is not the same as free glutamate.
- MertsA 8y ago
  I get what you're saying but that's why I used chicken broth as an example as that has tons of free glutamate as well as sodium to go with it. As for free vs. bound glutamate, if it's bound glutamate it's not going to contribute to taste, if you can taste that umami flavor then it's free glutamate you're tasting. (side note, glutamic acid on it's own will dissociate in water just like any other ionic bond, but I get what you mean) And while glutamine or glutamic acid in a protein isn't digested as quickly as free glutamate, it still gets hydrolyzed and given that "MSG syndrome" supposedly lasts for a while it stands to reason that even a slow release over the period of a day should still trigger symptomes given that there's generally a lot more bound glutamate than free glutamate. But a little free glutamate goes a long way, there's no chinese restaurants just dumping MSG in by the cup, that would be way too over seasoned. I use MSG on a lot of dishes myself and I'll use amounts that have less free glutamate in them than in some other common foods.

jayd16 8y ago

I will say I've noticed I get a headache after Korean bbq but I'm pretty sure its the beer and salt.