4 ms·
I mentally categorize these discussions of "true OOP" in the same class as "RESTful" API discussions. Nobody is quite sure what they're even arguing about, so
by cle 8y ago
I mentally categorize these discussions of "true OOP" in the same class as "RESTful" API discussions. Nobody is quite sure what they're even arguing about, so the discussions go around endlessly in circles.
- vbuwivbiu 8y agowhat's the name for concepts like these ?
- tyingq 8y agoThere is something of a "No true Scotsman" that comes up with both of those.
- narag 8y agoMaybe the cause of OOP success isn't what Alan Kay intended it to be, or Meyer or any other language creator or theoretician. IMHO the great thing of OOP was usability.
- h8hawk 8y agoAlan Kay is Turing award winner and one of the main pioneers in OOP. I don't know how he doesn't know what he talking about.
- cle 8y agoAlan Kay probably does know what he's talking about. The problem is that nobody else knows what he's talking about.
- 4thaccount 8y agoI stated something similar in an older post. Essentially we all know who he is and have a lot of respect for his amazing accomplishments. He even has some lectures that are awesome. One that I've watched a few times goes over the massive technical debt we're building as a society. The Xerox Parc team built a computer with an OS, language, editor, GUI...etc etc in probably 1/50th (I'm completely making this number up to paraphrase the point) of the code of just Microsoft Word. So we're using overcomplicated systems and tools and it isn't necessary. On the other hand, there are other papers, internet discussions, and talks of his where I think the target audience is someone who has an advanced understanding of computers, biology, art, philosophy, pedagogy, psychology and has had the time to piece it together and I'm completely lost as to the point he's trying to make and it is a shame. I wish those talks came with a ELI5 where I could get the gist before diving in further. Perhaps I haven't earned the knowledge to participate in those discussions yet.
- arkadiytehgraet 8y agoThese intentionally vague terms do have a purpose though - their inventors and early-to-mid adopters hype them up, write a book or two, sell few success stories and that's it - they can now sell their services to the startups and large enterprises alike; then others start cargo-culting and vicious cycle goes on. This has happened with pretty much every vague thing in the tech: "OOP", "Agile" (SAFe and friends), "RESTful", "serverless", etc...
- profalseidol 8y agoI can see REST way better than Struts era style of backend services when writing complex web apps.
- arendtio 8y agoWhenever you are unsure if something is truly OOP just answer one simple question: > Is everything an object? If the answer is no, you don't have true OOP in front of you. Otherwise, you might want to dig a little deeper.
- cryptonector 8y agoOh, it's much easier to define RESTful than OOP. RESTful means only that the thing you send has an envelope with enough metadata about what you're doing that middleware can reason enough about it to do things like caching and routing, and also, critically, the methods ("verbs" if you wish) in the envelope correspond only to things a browser can trivially figure out to do based on HTML. But really, in the end it means HTTP, and HTTP is basically like a filesystem protocol with fewer operations (e.g., no RENAME) on the one hand and more (content encoding conversions) on the other. The moment you need to compose operations into larger, atomic even, transactions, RESTful becomes a pain and the workaround is to treat it like an RPC protocol. And also, on the browser side, you leave HTML-only land and now need JavaScript to compose those transactions. However, as you'll see in the responses to this, you're actually completely right: there is no true scotsman.
- vbuwivbiu 8y agoSmalltalk had to cut corners with messaging due to the limited processing of the time, nevertheless it has fully reified messages; one can express the sending of messages between objects. Smalltalk inspired Erlang, which is the fully-asynchronous messaging/independent threads of execution part of OO only. Self did OO without inheritance (composition by prototypes).