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It is extremely telling to me that of all the comments here, most of them I've seen express concern not with the fact that 50 people were murdered by white supr

It is extremely telling to me that of all the comments here, most of them I've seen express concern not with the fact that 50 people were murdered by white supremacists (a number that seems to be rising year over year) but rather attempting to divert the topic into one about censorship and free speech. I have seen zero proposed solutions or ways of combating the rise of white supremacists because so far, the market place of ideas has not been successful. You're saying that there's a massive wave of censorship, yet white supremacist materials, videos and activity has never been more open and easy to access.

jimjimjim 8y ago
I had the same thought and it makes me sad. No suggestions, or ways to help. This is meant to be a meeting place of intelligent, creative, resourceful people. Instead of just saying "it's too difficult, lets do nothing" why not think of answers.
x38iq84n 8y ago
> I have seen zero proposed solutions or ways of combating the rise of white supremacists No, you have only missed them. The solution is exactly free speech and more of it. These days people are often suppressed when they voice a concern that touches certain topics, i.e. immigration, religion and particularly Islam, anti-semitism, rapid changes of demographics and many more. Media oppression and flat out censorship do not make a stop to the opinions they try to suppress. They just drive them away, to hidden forums, to non-mainstream platforms, to dark web. So instead of shunning white supremacists from media - tolerate them on and challenge them with arguments, explain how they are wrong, educate them, ridicule their nonsense; but never censor them.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  No, they're not often 'suppressed'. Again, nowadays it is far easier to access white supremacist material than possibly any other time. It's one search, one twitter account, one youtube recommendation away. These are people not operating on hidden forums at all, they're out in the open espousing these views. I keep seeing people repeat this view, but I see none of it. You're attempting to divert away from my point in that you don't propose an actual solution at all. You propose nothing except maintaining the status quo. Arguing against a white supremacist gives legitimacy to their views, because they don't argue on the same level as you or I. They knowingly make illogical arguments that you simply cannot refute and they don't care even if you try.
  - brailsafe 8y ago
    I feel like the best way to counter apparently illegitimate arguments is by bettering the argument for your stance, whatever it may be. If you can't argue your stance, how can it be defended legitimately?
- buttcoinslol 8y ago
  Ask Neville Chamberlin how appeasement turned out. You will never have a debate in good faith with a white supremacist, as it's an inherently irrational position. Don't waste your breath on them.
- NavyNuke 8y ago
  > white supremacists People conflate white supremacists with white in-group preference...in-group preference is not bad, believing you're group is better than others may be bad or it may not be, it really depends...the point is a of white people who simply want to live around other white people who share their culture are inaccurately disparaged...
- thousandautumns 8y ago
  > So instead of shunning white supremacists from media - tolerate them on and challenge them with arguments, explain how they are wrong, educate them, ridicule their nonsense; but never censor them. This takes the mistaken position that social media is a good tool for discussion and debate, and we have plenty of evidence to the contrary at this point. This is also the same thought process that leads to ideologies like climate change-denialism, evolution-denialism, anti-vaxxing, etc. to be given oxygen when they shouldn't. It assumes that by shining the light on these topics, the debate should result in people rejecting them, but in reality it simply gives them more credibility. We live in a post truth era, where people don't use the internet to debate and agree on what is write and wrong and rethink our opinions, but to form bubbles with people who agree with what we want to believe, which we leave occasionally to scream at each other, and then retreat to in order to insulate ourselves from reality. The people who are driven to non-mainstream forums such as 8chan that comprise the scum of the internet are already fairly radical in their thinking. That's why they seek out those sites. But non-radical thinkers may be susceptible to radicalization by giving a platform on a mainstream site like Twitter or Youtube to idealogies like white supremacy, militant Islam, or violent misogyny.
sadris 8y ago
He was a nationalist, not supremacist. > I have seen zero proposed solutions or ways of combating the rise of white supremacists because so far, the market place of ideas has not been successful. The moderate nationalists like Taylor have been purged from common media. He is equated to the exact same as the shooter. After a Muslim terrorist attack we all call for moderate Muslims to help engage in dialog to talk radical ones out of violence. But in the case of nationalist terrorism that is no where to be seen. If you ever listen to interviews of former nationalists, dialog is what got the to change their position. Not once did no platforming or throwing bottles at them work. There was an interview with one on CNN last week about this.
RHSeeger 8y ago
> the comments here, most of them I've seen express concern not with the fact that 50 people were murdered by white supremacists (a number that seems to be rising year over year) but rather attempting to divert the topic into one about censorship and free speech. The original topic (the headline) was about censorship > Facebook failed to block 20% of uploaded New Zealand shooter videos and it's what the comments addressed. People were commenting about the topic that was being addressed. They weren't diverting anything; you were.
NavyNuke 8y ago
> I have seen zero proposed solutions or ways of combating the rise of white supremacists because so far... Curb immigration...require incoming immigrants adopt the culture of country they are immigrating to...if they complain about "lack of diversity/opportunity/representation of their kind of people in a country they just moved to, send them back to wherever they came from...
krageon 8y ago
You know what, this is a valid point. Before this incident I mostly filed away the re-rise of fascism as "just another American piece of weirdness" that would more or less correct itself given another five years. Perhaps now that we see similar problems in other countries it is time to investigate where the feelings of discontent that are giving rise to violent action are coming from on such a grand scale. On a global level, it's definitely not clear to me.

jimjimjim 8y ago

I had the same thought and it makes me sad. No suggestions, or ways to help. This is meant to be a meeting place of intelligent, creative, resourceful people. Instead of just saying "it's too difficult, lets do nothing" why not think of answers.

x38iq84n 8y ago

> I have seen zero proposed solutions or ways of combating the rise of white supremacists No, you have only missed them. The solution is exactly free speech and more of it. These days people are often suppressed when they voice a concern that touches certain topics, i.e. immigration, religion and particularly Islam, anti-semitism, rapid changes of demographics and many more. Media oppression and flat out censorship do not make a stop to the opinions they try to suppress. They just drive them away, to hidden forums, to non-mainstream platforms, to dark web. So instead of shunning white supremacists from media - tolerate them on and challenge them with arguments, explain how they are wrong, educate them, ridicule their nonsense; but never censor them.

fzeroracer 8y ago
No, they're not often 'suppressed'. Again, nowadays it is far easier to access white supremacist material than possibly any other time. It's one search, one twitter account, one youtube recommendation away. These are people not operating on hidden forums at all, they're out in the open espousing these views. I keep seeing people repeat this view, but I see none of it. You're attempting to divert away from my point in that you don't propose an actual solution at all. You propose nothing except maintaining the status quo. Arguing against a white supremacist gives legitimacy to their views, because they don't argue on the same level as you or I. They knowingly make illogical arguments that you simply cannot refute and they don't care even if you try.
- brailsafe 8y ago
  I feel like the best way to counter apparently illegitimate arguments is by bettering the argument for your stance, whatever it may be. If you can't argue your stance, how can it be defended legitimately?
buttcoinslol 8y ago
Ask Neville Chamberlin how appeasement turned out. You will never have a debate in good faith with a white supremacist, as it's an inherently irrational position. Don't waste your breath on them.
NavyNuke 8y ago
> white supremacists People conflate white supremacists with white in-group preference...in-group preference is not bad, believing you're group is better than others may be bad or it may not be, it really depends...the point is a of white people who simply want to live around other white people who share their culture are inaccurately disparaged...
thousandautumns 8y ago
> So instead of shunning white supremacists from media - tolerate them on and challenge them with arguments, explain how they are wrong, educate them, ridicule their nonsense; but never censor them. This takes the mistaken position that social media is a good tool for discussion and debate, and we have plenty of evidence to the contrary at this point. This is also the same thought process that leads to ideologies like climate change-denialism, evolution-denialism, anti-vaxxing, etc. to be given oxygen when they shouldn't. It assumes that by shining the light on these topics, the debate should result in people rejecting them, but in reality it simply gives them more credibility. We live in a post truth era, where people don't use the internet to debate and agree on what is write and wrong and rethink our opinions, but to form bubbles with people who agree with what we want to believe, which we leave occasionally to scream at each other, and then retreat to in order to insulate ourselves from reality. The people who are driven to non-mainstream forums such as 8chan that comprise the scum of the internet are already fairly radical in their thinking. That's why they seek out those sites. But non-radical thinkers may be susceptible to radicalization by giving a platform on a mainstream site like Twitter or Youtube to idealogies like white supremacy, militant Islam, or violent misogyny.

sadris 8y ago

He was a nationalist, not supremacist. > I have seen zero proposed solutions or ways of combating the rise of white supremacists because so far, the market place of ideas has not been successful. The moderate nationalists like Taylor have been purged from common media. He is equated to the exact same as the shooter. After a Muslim terrorist attack we all call for moderate Muslims to help engage in dialog to talk radical ones out of violence. But in the case of nationalist terrorism that is no where to be seen. If you ever listen to interviews of former nationalists, dialog is what got the to change their position. Not once did no platforming or throwing bottles at them work. There was an interview with one on CNN last week about this.

RHSeeger 8y ago

> the comments here, most of them I've seen express concern not with the fact that 50 people were murdered by white supremacists (a number that seems to be rising year over year) but rather attempting to divert the topic into one about censorship and free speech. The original topic (the headline) was about censorship > Facebook failed to block 20% of uploaded New Zealand shooter videos and it's what the comments addressed. People were commenting about the topic that was being addressed. They weren't diverting anything; you were.

NavyNuke 8y ago

> I have seen zero proposed solutions or ways of combating the rise of white supremacists because so far... Curb immigration...require incoming immigrants adopt the culture of country they are immigrating to...if they complain about "lack of diversity/opportunity/representation of their kind of people in a country they just moved to, send them back to wherever they came from...

krageon 8y ago

You know what, this is a valid point. Before this incident I mostly filed away the re-rise of fascism as "just another American piece of weirdness" that would more or less correct itself given another five years. Perhaps now that we see similar problems in other countries it is time to investigate where the feelings of discontent that are giving rise to violent action are coming from on such a grand scale. On a global level, it's definitely not clear to me.