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From another perspective Romania is on the right track. They haven't over built roads that suit individuals, rather they are focusing on mass transit. This is

From another perspective Romania is on the right track. They haven't over built roads that suit individuals, rather they are focusing on mass transit. This is just a wasteful stunt. The only shame is on himself.

oblio 8y ago
WTF? What "mass transit" are you going on about? Our railways are decaying and the average speed is around 60 kmph. Air transport is super inefficient in super expensive for the average Romanian, for internal flights. A whole region of the country is cut off from development because on a 400 km radius the fastest you can go, legally, over long distances, is an average of 70 kmph.
- snvzz 8y ago
  So if I understand it correctly, the railways need improvement? I'd put the effort there, mass transit is much more sensible than cars.
  - oblio 8y ago
    Dude, we're not talking about California-style "save the world" here. We're talking about providing a EU member non Third World infrastructure. Trains would be awesome, but they need to be correlated with the local needs. Romania is poor and has low density. High speed trains are super expensive and only serve cities, basically. We need decent roads and highways.
    - yeahitslikethat 8y ago
      That's what everyone says and why the world is in the mess it's in. Roads are antiquated technology. Romania has a chance to leapfrog most of the world and it seems you're looking backward.
      - quickthrower2 8y ago
        Roads might surpass trains in the future both in terms of the environment and safety. Self driving electric cars are where it is at, and Romania will get them once they are an affordable commodity.
      - buboard 8y ago
        that sounds like some kind of kool-aid
      - oblio 8y ago
        Leapfrog? That's long term vision. We're currently fighting against our government party because they want to put the lead anti-corruption prosecutor in jail as the EU is trying to appoint her as the head of the EU prosecutor's office. We're talking about people who not only want to stuff their pockets (super bad, but let's say... ok, by local standards) but don't even do their jobs. They're like a parasite that kills the host knowing full well they'll also die without the host. Heaps of hubris and stupidity lumped up in our politicians.
    - argd678 8y ago
      Is that something the EU should be funding?
      - narag 8y ago
        Yes.
      - oblio 8y ago
        Yes, and they are. I know people that work for the EU. Romania's government is so incompetent and corrupt that they're literally refusing EU loans or grants because they can't embezzle funds. And even when they somehow manage to get the funds, they're so incompetent that they can't manage to finish things on time and on budget. They started building a highway in Transylvania in 1999 and they've barely built 40% of it, 20 years later. They've restarted works 2 times, my guess they do it so that each new government gets its cut. These people are so cynical they'd just watch the country burn for their personal interest.
        argd678 8y ago
        It’s sad but I think this is one of the key difference in richer nations is they just have better attitudes.
        oblio 8y ago
        Definitely.
        HNLurker2 8y ago
        And the emigrants (1)https://www.populationpyramid.net/romania/2029/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/romania/2029/ For comparasion see Denmark: https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2013/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2013/ Edit: removed offensive stuff
    - snvzz 8y ago
      High speed trains aren't the only kind of train. I've been to japan recently. I've seen with my own eyes what a good rail infrastructure is like.
      - oblio 8y ago
        Yes, but Japan's GDP is $3tn. Romania's is $200bn. And Romania's government is corrupt, not as corrupt as some Third World countries, but definitely way more corrupt compared to Western standards. We need to learn to walk before we run. And regarding high speed trains, for Romania that means 130 kmph :)
        vr46 8y ago
        $200M??? I had to go look it up, it’s $200Bn! $200M shocked me and also didn’t at the same time, as I have been there and seen it for myself.
        oblio 8y ago
        Fixed :)
      - drcross 8y ago
        Motorways are absolutely needed in a modern country. To suggest otherwise is wilfully ignorant.
    - hedora 8y ago
      This sounds just like California-style transit planning: they have a road network that’s so screwed up you can measure the economic drag, and laughably slow / disfunctional trains. The article estimates the problem is only a 2% drain on the Romanian economy. The SF Bay Area economy is surely burning more than 2% due to multi-hour commutes, distorted property values, lack of non-tech workers to support basic infrastructure (like schools and fire stations) etc, etc.
      - oblio 8y ago
        It's not just about economics. Let's say that I want to visit my cousin 400 km away. That's 7-8 hours away in Romania...
      - sonnyblarney 8y ago
        "they have a road network that’s so screwed up you can measure the economic drag, " Yeah. No. California has 'too much wealth / productivity / how do we share the surpluses? ' kinds of problems. Romania has 'maybe we should have roads ?' problems. This is a different dimensionality.
      - adventured 8y ago
        To keep things in perspective, California has a GDP per capita of $74,000. There are only two nations that can compare to that: Norway and Switzerland. It's nearly 100% higher than France, the UK and Japan. Romania's GDP per capita is ~$10,700. They've made great strides in building up their economy in the past two decades. Their 21% GDP growth since 2007 is among the best in Europe. Per capita they rank above Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, China and will pass Russia this year or next. California's problems aren't due to lack of income or economic output to tax, and it can afford a bit of drag on its economy from mediocre roads given the extraordinary output levels in question (which isn't to say CA shouldn't fix its terrible roads). California is a case of mismanagement of riches over decades, which isn't a position that Romania has (yet) found itself in.
        HNLurker2 8y ago
        >Their 21% GDP growth since 2007 is among the best in Europe. Per capita they rank above Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, China and will pass Russia this year or next. Can you elaborate. AFAIK after privatization in '89 (fall of the communist party) we kind lost a lot of industry in metallurgy, marble extraction (got owned by big guys) etc..
cbg0 8y ago
Actually, no, mass transit is pretty terrible in most places in Romania and we definitely need more motorways and/or expressways. Trains are slow and have huge delays pretty much all over, the only subway system is in the capital city and is jam packed during rush hours, and it's also a bit unpredictable in terms of when the next train will arrive. To speak to the stunt, it is actually very well viewed by both the average person as well as businessmen in Romania.
ajkjk 8y ago
It's private money. It can't really be wasteful basically by definition. ... Of course it can be wasteful to them personally, if they think it didn't achieve its aims. But considering the modest price, the fact that I'm even aware of it means it definitely did.

oblio 8y ago

WTF? What "mass transit" are you going on about? Our railways are decaying and the average speed is around 60 kmph. Air transport is super inefficient in super expensive for the average Romanian, for internal flights. A whole region of the country is cut off from development because on a 400 km radius the fastest you can go, legally, over long distances, is an average of 70 kmph.

snvzz 8y ago
So if I understand it correctly, the railways need improvement? I'd put the effort there, mass transit is much more sensible than cars.
- oblio 8y ago
  Dude, we're not talking about California-style "save the world" here. We're talking about providing a EU member non Third World infrastructure. Trains would be awesome, but they need to be correlated with the local needs. Romania is poor and has low density. High speed trains are super expensive and only serve cities, basically. We need decent roads and highways.
  - yeahitslikethat 8y ago
    That's what everyone says and why the world is in the mess it's in. Roads are antiquated technology. Romania has a chance to leapfrog most of the world and it seems you're looking backward.
    - quickthrower2 8y ago
      Roads might surpass trains in the future both in terms of the environment and safety. Self driving electric cars are where it is at, and Romania will get them once they are an affordable commodity.
    - buboard 8y ago
      that sounds like some kind of kool-aid
    - oblio 8y ago
      Leapfrog? That's long term vision. We're currently fighting against our government party because they want to put the lead anti-corruption prosecutor in jail as the EU is trying to appoint her as the head of the EU prosecutor's office. We're talking about people who not only want to stuff their pockets (super bad, but let's say... ok, by local standards) but don't even do their jobs. They're like a parasite that kills the host knowing full well they'll also die without the host. Heaps of hubris and stupidity lumped up in our politicians.
  - argd678 8y ago
    Is that something the EU should be funding?
    - narag 8y ago
      Yes.
    - oblio 8y ago
      Yes, and they are. I know people that work for the EU. Romania's government is so incompetent and corrupt that they're literally refusing EU loans or grants because they can't embezzle funds. And even when they somehow manage to get the funds, they're so incompetent that they can't manage to finish things on time and on budget. They started building a highway in Transylvania in 1999 and they've barely built 40% of it, 20 years later. They've restarted works 2 times, my guess they do it so that each new government gets its cut. These people are so cynical they'd just watch the country burn for their personal interest.
      - argd678 8y ago
        It’s sad but I think this is one of the key difference in richer nations is they just have better attitudes.
        oblio 8y ago
        Definitely.
        HNLurker2 8y ago
        And the emigrants (1)https://www.populationpyramid.net/romania/2029/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/romania/2029/ For comparasion see Denmark: https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2013/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/denmark/2013/ Edit: removed offensive stuff
  - snvzz 8y ago
    High speed trains aren't the only kind of train. I've been to japan recently. I've seen with my own eyes what a good rail infrastructure is like.
    - oblio 8y ago
      Yes, but Japan's GDP is $3tn. Romania's is $200bn. And Romania's government is corrupt, not as corrupt as some Third World countries, but definitely way more corrupt compared to Western standards. We need to learn to walk before we run. And regarding high speed trains, for Romania that means 130 kmph :)
      - vr46 8y ago
        $200M??? I had to go look it up, it’s $200Bn! $200M shocked me and also didn’t at the same time, as I have been there and seen it for myself.
        oblio 8y ago
        Fixed :)
    - drcross 8y ago
      Motorways are absolutely needed in a modern country. To suggest otherwise is wilfully ignorant.
  - hedora 8y ago
    This sounds just like California-style transit planning: they have a road network that’s so screwed up you can measure the economic drag, and laughably slow / disfunctional trains. The article estimates the problem is only a 2% drain on the Romanian economy. The SF Bay Area economy is surely burning more than 2% due to multi-hour commutes, distorted property values, lack of non-tech workers to support basic infrastructure (like schools and fire stations) etc, etc.
    - oblio 8y ago
      It's not just about economics. Let's say that I want to visit my cousin 400 km away. That's 7-8 hours away in Romania...
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      "they have a road network that’s so screwed up you can measure the economic drag, " Yeah. No. California has 'too much wealth / productivity / how do we share the surpluses? ' kinds of problems. Romania has 'maybe we should have roads ?' problems. This is a different dimensionality.
    - adventured 8y ago
      To keep things in perspective, California has a GDP per capita of $74,000. There are only two nations that can compare to that: Norway and Switzerland. It's nearly 100% higher than France, the UK and Japan. Romania's GDP per capita is ~$10,700. They've made great strides in building up their economy in the past two decades. Their 21% GDP growth since 2007 is among the best in Europe. Per capita they rank above Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, China and will pass Russia this year or next. California's problems aren't due to lack of income or economic output to tax, and it can afford a bit of drag on its economy from mediocre roads given the extraordinary output levels in question (which isn't to say CA shouldn't fix its terrible roads). California is a case of mismanagement of riches over decades, which isn't a position that Romania has (yet) found itself in.
      - HNLurker2 8y ago
        >Their 21% GDP growth since 2007 is among the best in Europe. Per capita they rank above Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, China and will pass Russia this year or next. Can you elaborate. AFAIK after privatization in '89 (fall of the communist party) we kind lost a lot of industry in metallurgy, marble extraction (got owned by big guys) etc..

cbg0 8y ago

Actually, no, mass transit is pretty terrible in most places in Romania and we definitely need more motorways and/or expressways. Trains are slow and have huge delays pretty much all over, the only subway system is in the capital city and is jam packed during rush hours, and it's also a bit unpredictable in terms of when the next train will arrive. To speak to the stunt, it is actually very well viewed by both the average person as well as businessmen in Romania.

ajkjk 8y ago

It's private money. It can't really be wasteful basically by definition. ... Of course it can be wasteful to them personally, if they think it didn't achieve its aims. But considering the modest price, the fact that I'm even aware of it means it definitely did.