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Unfortunate sequence of events: he turned out to be a Korean citizen which was the cause. As such I really don't understand the title of the post. The fact he

Unfortunate sequence of events: he turned out to be a Korean citizen which was the cause. As such I really don't understand the title of the post. The fact he was an American citizen had nothing to do with it. He might as well have been Egyptian, Irish or Chinese and it wouldn't have changed anything.

jpatokal 8y ago
People, even dual citizens, are often under the mistaken impression that having another citizenship is a "get out of jail free" card for the obligations of the other one. This is very much not the case.
- donretag 8y ago
  Exactly. I am an American citizen, but was still drafted into another country's army.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    What happens if you are in a conflict with the United States?
    - sharpneli 8y ago
      It might depend on country but I can tell how it works in Finland. If you are in Finnish army then you will fight against your other country. But Finnish army doesnt allow being member of multiple armies. So if you have gone trough, as an example, US service Finnish army wont accept you. And if you go to US army after gaining rank in Finnish army you lose the Finnish rank and are just a civilian.
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        Interesting. The reason I'm asking this is because I faintly recall my parents saying that they were asked if they'd fight for the United States when they applied for their citizenship if they ever went to war against their (previous) home country, so I'm curious if there's differences in what they ask you if you are applying for a dual citizenship.
        clamprecht 8y ago
        What was your parents' answer?
        saagarjha 8y ago
        Yes, of course ;)
- int_19h 8y ago
  In many cases it is, so long as you stay away from the other jurisdiction. In this case, though, it's not that he had such an impression. It's that he didn't know he was a Korean citizen. If draft is a social contract, what do you call a contract where one of the parties never consented to it and wasn't even aware that someone signed them up without their consent, and then the other party tries to enforce it?
  - askmike 8y ago
    Citizenship is not about consent. There might be situations where you can out of yours, but I don't think that means that everyone else consents. That said I don't agree with how it works.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Some countries don't let you do it at all, and most make it complicated and expensive, but still. For adults, that's an option if you're unhappy with taxes, laws etc. But if you're born a citizen in a country with conscription, then you're underage - and thus unable to opt-out on your own, even if you could somehow afford it - until you're 18. And then they hand you the summons.
      - jogjayr 8y ago
        > Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Only if you're able to obtain another citizenship. I don't think any country will allow renunciation if it leaves you stateless.
        int_19h 8y ago
        Most countries don't, but some do; USA is one of them.
  - pawelmurias 8y ago
    An involuntary social construct like the contract that you have to choose either your money or your life.
- jfk13 8y ago
  Indeed. It's quite explicit, for example, in the British government's information on "Support for British nationals abroad": "If you have some connection with another country – for example, by birth, by descent through either parent, by marriage or by residence – you may be a national of that country as well as being a British national. ... You may still have certain responsibilities with that country, such as compulsory military service."
- maze-le 8y ago
  The worst of it is, some states don't let you rescind your citizenship at all. I know at least 2 Iranian born citizens of my country, that cannot travel to their family and former friends anymore because of this -- Turkey seems to enforce steps in this regard too lately. Citizenship status should be "opt-in" not "opt-out" or "no option" at all.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    Why? Why should other countries accept a Western conception of citizenship as disclaimable? Those other countries are not colonies of anyone, they’re sovereign, they can do as they like and if other countries disagree they can go to war or use some of the other methods countries use to resolved disagreements.
    - maze-le 8y ago
      Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want, that is equally true the other way around -- I don't see a connection to a concoted West-vs-East / colonial argument. You are trying to create an point fo conflict where there is none. If my country would enforce this (It doesn't) I should have the equal opportunity to renounce my german citizenship in favour of the iranian citizenship... This also happens in the West as well. And last but not least, this my opinion, I am not forcing this onto anyone -- and if I am of the opinion that this concept of "citizenship as hostage" is BS, I can make that opinion public. This touches the sovereignty of those states in no way, except when this sovereignty is enforced on people that are not part of the society of that country, and have lived 95% of their lives in another country.
      - jfk13 8y ago
        > Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want In practice, most societies do not allow arbitrary individuals to choose to come and join them; immigration restrictions are a thing pretty much everywhere.
        8y ago
bachmeier 8y ago
No, it says "More than two decades previously, a family member — who, he’s still not sure — added his name to the family register then used in South Korea to determine citizenship, incorrectly listing his place of birth as Seoul."
- the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
  I’m not sure that matters. It’s likely that his father is south korean and that makes him south korean by birth ex lege. If anything the register record just made it visible be he would still have been korean otherwise.
  - benatkin 8y ago
    Yeah, think about Ted Cruz. He wasn't born in some base of the US like McCain was. He was born in Canada. Plain and simple. However he is a fully fledged citizen of the USA, and eligible to become president.
- askmike 8y ago
  Yes, so he turned out to be Korean. But I still don't know what it has to do with the fact he was American as well?
Simon_says 8y ago
Really? That’s not my read of it. A kid is born in the US to naturalized US citizens of Korean ethnicity. Unbeknownst to him a relative enters him on some registry. He goes to Korea under a visa for ethnically Korean foreigners, and he in no way takes advantage of his supposed citizenship. This sounds to me like the Korean government made a mistake and jailed an American citizen for two years without due process. I bet with a better lawyer he could have avoided it. If I were him I would be more angry, too.
- jpatokal 8y ago
  There was no mistake: by Korean law he's Korean and thus has to be conscripted. Of course it sucks that he wasn't aware of this, but the letter of the law was followed here.
  - droithomme 8y ago
    I'm curious if it matters that he was born in the US to US citizens. When his parents became naturalized, they were required to renounce their Korean citizenship and were no longer dual citizens. So his father was not Korean nationality.
    - forinti 8y ago
      Just because you renounced you previous citizenship in the US, doesn't mean you lost it. Uruguayan law says you retain your citizenship even if you renounce it in order to obtain another. Brazilian law, OTH, says you lose it if you voluntarily obtain another, even if you don't renounce.
      - wenc 8y ago
        > Uruguayan law says you retain your citizenship even if you renounce it in order to obtain another. Not sure I understand this. When you renounce a citizenship, you file renunciation papers with the government of the country in question. If you are abroad, you do it with the embassy if that country. Renunciation is a explicit, unambiguous legally binding step recognized by the country in question. Once approved, you lose that citizenship. How does one still retain citizenship, assuming the renunciation succeeds? Unless you’re talking about assumed loss of citizenship by taking on another citizenship?
exegete 8y ago
This is a well-known situation for international adoptions. Many countries have mandatory military service for males, so often a male child who has been adopted from such a country will renounce his birth country's citizenship to avoid the military service, since he also has citizenship in his adoptive parent's country.

jpatokal 8y ago

People, even dual citizens, are often under the mistaken impression that having another citizenship is a "get out of jail free" card for the obligations of the other one. This is very much not the case.

donretag 8y ago
Exactly. I am an American citizen, but was still drafted into another country's army.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  What happens if you are in a conflict with the United States?
  - sharpneli 8y ago
    It might depend on country but I can tell how it works in Finland. If you are in Finnish army then you will fight against your other country. But Finnish army doesnt allow being member of multiple armies. So if you have gone trough, as an example, US service Finnish army wont accept you. And if you go to US army after gaining rank in Finnish army you lose the Finnish rank and are just a civilian.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      Interesting. The reason I'm asking this is because I faintly recall my parents saying that they were asked if they'd fight for the United States when they applied for their citizenship if they ever went to war against their (previous) home country, so I'm curious if there's differences in what they ask you if you are applying for a dual citizenship.
      - clamprecht 8y ago
        What was your parents' answer?
        saagarjha 8y ago
        Yes, of course ;)
int_19h 8y ago
In many cases it is, so long as you stay away from the other jurisdiction. In this case, though, it's not that he had such an impression. It's that he didn't know he was a Korean citizen. If draft is a social contract, what do you call a contract where one of the parties never consented to it and wasn't even aware that someone signed them up without their consent, and then the other party tries to enforce it?
- askmike 8y ago
  Citizenship is not about consent. There might be situations where you can out of yours, but I don't think that means that everyone else consents. That said I don't agree with how it works.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Some countries don't let you do it at all, and most make it complicated and expensive, but still. For adults, that's an option if you're unhappy with taxes, laws etc. But if you're born a citizen in a country with conscription, then you're underage - and thus unable to opt-out on your own, even if you could somehow afford it - until you're 18. And then they hand you the summons.
    - jogjayr 8y ago
      > Citizenship is at least opt-out in general. Only if you're able to obtain another citizenship. I don't think any country will allow renunciation if it leaves you stateless.
      - int_19h 8y ago
        Most countries don't, but some do; USA is one of them.
- pawelmurias 8y ago
  An involuntary social construct like the contract that you have to choose either your money or your life.
jfk13 8y ago
Indeed. It's quite explicit, for example, in the British government's information on "Support for British nationals abroad": "If you have some connection with another country – for example, by birth, by descent through either parent, by marriage or by residence – you may be a national of that country as well as being a British national. ... You may still have certain responsibilities with that country, such as compulsory military service."
maze-le 8y ago
The worst of it is, some states don't let you rescind your citizenship at all. I know at least 2 Iranian born citizens of my country, that cannot travel to their family and former friends anymore because of this -- Turkey seems to enforce steps in this regard too lately. Citizenship status should be "opt-in" not "opt-out" or "no option" at all.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Why? Why should other countries accept a Western conception of citizenship as disclaimable? Those other countries are not colonies of anyone, they’re sovereign, they can do as they like and if other countries disagree they can go to war or use some of the other methods countries use to resolved disagreements.
  - maze-le 8y ago
    Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want, that is equally true the other way around -- I don't see a connection to a concoted West-vs-East / colonial argument. You are trying to create an point fo conflict where there is none. If my country would enforce this (It doesn't) I should have the equal opportunity to renounce my german citizenship in favour of the iranian citizenship... This also happens in the West as well. And last but not least, this my opinion, I am not forcing this onto anyone -- and if I am of the opinion that this concept of "citizenship as hostage" is BS, I can make that opinion public. This touches the sovereignty of those states in no way, except when this sovereignty is enforced on people that are not part of the society of that country, and have lived 95% of their lives in another country.
    - jfk13 8y ago
      > Each individual should have the choice to live in the society they want In practice, most societies do not allow arbitrary individuals to choose to come and join them; immigration restrictions are a thing pretty much everywhere.
      - 8y ago

bachmeier 8y ago

No, it says "More than two decades previously, a family member — who, he’s still not sure — added his name to the family register then used in South Korea to determine citizenship, incorrectly listing his place of birth as Seoul."

the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
I’m not sure that matters. It’s likely that his father is south korean and that makes him south korean by birth ex lege. If anything the register record just made it visible be he would still have been korean otherwise.
- benatkin 8y ago
  Yeah, think about Ted Cruz. He wasn't born in some base of the US like McCain was. He was born in Canada. Plain and simple. However he is a fully fledged citizen of the USA, and eligible to become president.
askmike 8y ago
Yes, so he turned out to be Korean. But I still don't know what it has to do with the fact he was American as well?

Simon_says 8y ago

Really? That’s not my read of it. A kid is born in the US to naturalized US citizens of Korean ethnicity. Unbeknownst to him a relative enters him on some registry. He goes to Korea under a visa for ethnically Korean foreigners, and he in no way takes advantage of his supposed citizenship. This sounds to me like the Korean government made a mistake and jailed an American citizen for two years without due process. I bet with a better lawyer he could have avoided it. If I were him I would be more angry, too.

jpatokal 8y ago
There was no mistake: by Korean law he's Korean and thus has to be conscripted. Of course it sucks that he wasn't aware of this, but the letter of the law was followed here.
- droithomme 8y ago
  I'm curious if it matters that he was born in the US to US citizens. When his parents became naturalized, they were required to renounce their Korean citizenship and were no longer dual citizens. So his father was not Korean nationality.
  - forinti 8y ago
    Just because you renounced you previous citizenship in the US, doesn't mean you lost it. Uruguayan law says you retain your citizenship even if you renounce it in order to obtain another. Brazilian law, OTH, says you lose it if you voluntarily obtain another, even if you don't renounce.
    - wenc 8y ago
      > Uruguayan law says you retain your citizenship even if you renounce it in order to obtain another. Not sure I understand this. When you renounce a citizenship, you file renunciation papers with the government of the country in question. If you are abroad, you do it with the embassy if that country. Renunciation is a explicit, unambiguous legally binding step recognized by the country in question. Once approved, you lose that citizenship. How does one still retain citizenship, assuming the renunciation succeeds? Unless you’re talking about assumed loss of citizenship by taking on another citizenship?

exegete 8y ago

This is a well-known situation for international adoptions. Many countries have mandatory military service for males, so often a male child who has been adopted from such a country will renounce his birth country's citizenship to avoid the military service, since he also has citizenship in his adoptive parent's country.