7 ms·

'The question is - why do girls "not want to" by the time they reach age 18?' For the same reason not many men become maternity nurses or kindergarten teachers

by m0nty 18y ago

'The question is - why do girls "not want to" by the time they reach age 18?' For the same reason not many men become maternity nurses or kindergarten teachers? Frankly, you couldn't have kept me away from IT if you'd tried. Despite low wages (when I started, at least), poor conditions, working on short-term contracts, being required to educate myself, putting up with being treated like some kind of idiot savant, etc, etc -- still, I wanted it very, very badly. Now, for people who don't feel that way, we're supposed to engage in this collective hand-wringing exercise: "Oh dear! Not enough wimmin in IT!" If they don't want it, I would seriously question the morality of (so to speak) tricking them into joining the profession on the basis of a collection of half-truths. Either you want to play with the shiny toys or you don't. And if you don't, good luck, because 90% of the time it's not exactly what you'd call fun anyway. Incidentally, I've been around a bit and I have never, ever witnessed any indication of prejudice against women in IT. Where I've worked with female engineers, they've always been welcomed and treated with respect. Maybe we should just accept what any parent can tell you: there are gender differences, and we need to accept those rather than pretend we're all the same. /rant. calming down now ;) talk amongst yourselves...

projectileboy 18y ago
I actually agree with everything you said - I, too, have never felt or seen bias against women in IT, once we're all adults. My perspective is that of the parent of a six-year-old girl, and if you actually believe that society doesn't start drilling into girls' heads from day one that their mission in life is to play with dolls, put on make up, and do little else... well, then you don't see much mainstream media.
- m0nty 18y ago
  Please don't think I was ranting at you, I really didn't mean it to come across like that :) It's just this daft idea that there should be a 50/50 M/F split across any profession, let alone IT. I have two children (1 boy, 1 girl) and they have very different interests, so I'm approaching this from a parent's viewpoint as well. As for encouraging them into the profession, I always say "do something you like and ignore computers, because it will grind you down in a relentless, soul-destroying fashion." I'm being a bit cynical and if they showed a genuine interest I'd encourage it, but I'll be damned if I say it's the most rewarding, happy profession out there. Cos it ain't.
  - projectileboy 18y ago
    No offense taken, brother. My rant stems from how shocked I am each and every day at how strongly girls are encouraged to be submissive, or even just plain stupid. People I know without kids often act like it's not an issue, "just keep 'em away from TV", but they don't see that it's everywhere: TV, radio, product packaging, billboards, etc. I was pretty blind to it myself until I had a daughter.
    - m0nty 18y ago
      "every day at how strongly girls are encouraged to be submissive, or even just plain stupid" Yup, I agree with that. My daughter discovered Xena a few years ago, then Buffy, so she doesn't fit the submissive, stupid mold at all :-) Good role models, AFAIC. There's no TV and I've always taught them to be suspicious of advertising, so that helps. But, let's face it, we all fit some kind of cultural expectations even when we don't want to.
    - jimbokun 18y ago
      In the U.S. many more women are now attending college than men. In large U.S. cities, for the first time ever, young women are out-earning men. I just don't buy that (U.S.) women are receiving and accepting a message that they are "submissive." There is still some overhang from the previous male dominated culture, but it is being rapidly eroded and may have already disappeared for the generation now attending college and/or entering the work force. I am curious to see data indicating a trend in the opposite direction.
      - shawndrost 18y ago
        "In large U.S. cities, for the first time ever, young women are out-earning men." -- interesting! citation?
        jimbokun 18y ago
        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html "Young women in New York and several of the nation’s other largest cities who work full time have forged ahead of men in wages, according to an analysis of recent census data."
- silencio 18y ago
  Then a lot of "adults" really aren't adults. I've met lots of people from all walks of life, and there's really nothing separating the cretins from the nice folks. Mainstream media can be pretty disturbing. I have a bunch of friends my age (19), and I'm quite possibly the only one that puts makeup on sparingly only at special events like a concert I'm performing at - like, covering up a small blemish and putting on a teeny bit of eyeshadow to be a bit more photogenic. Apparently you're not beautiful until your face is buried under a ton of makeup. :(
silencio 18y ago
In regards to the first half of your comment, it's probably the case that a lot of professions are like that. To the second half...I haven't even graduated college and I've dealt with more than I've wanted to. Sure, with some profs and at some of the places I've worked at it was awesome - people were friendly and treated me as an equal. But I've gotten my fair share of discrimination. In fact, why do I end up writing so much about this. Lemme just copy and paste what I wrote on a similar reddit topic: I was interested in computers and programming in particular since elementary school, and since then I've been harassed about it by the most unexpected people. My parents gave up the fight but not after more than a decade, and I get irked by the various types of people I end up talking to when my job/major comes up. "You're kidding, right? You're a woman, do you know what to do?" is not that uncommon to hear, despite the decent resume with good references or a word-of-mouth recommendation from some happy client who wouldn't shut up telling them about how much they liked me and my work. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Or maybe you just..don't notice it?
- m0nty 18y ago
  "Or maybe you just..don't notice it?" Well, you could argue that about the discrimination I've faced in my work. Or maybe I was just working with assholes, I don't know. Or maybe it's a cultural thing, comparing the US or India to the UK (where I live). I honestly don't know, but I can say that I have not once been aware of discrimination, at least in the immediate workplace. I can't speak about rates of pay or promotion prospects, or whatever, but that's my experience.
- undetected 18y ago
  Once you are IN the industry, you probably won't have that problem much longer.
- attack 18y ago
  You are very wrong to suggest that men are not discouraged from taking this career path as well.

by m0nty 18y ago

projectileboy 18y ago

I actually agree with everything you said - I, too, have never felt or seen bias against women in IT, once we're all adults. My perspective is that of the parent of a six-year-old girl, and if you actually believe that society doesn't start drilling into girls' heads from day one that their mission in life is to play with dolls, put on make up, and do little else... well, then you don't see much mainstream media.

m0nty 18y ago
Please don't think I was ranting at you, I really didn't mean it to come across like that :) It's just this daft idea that there should be a 50/50 M/F split across any profession, let alone IT. I have two children (1 boy, 1 girl) and they have very different interests, so I'm approaching this from a parent's viewpoint as well. As for encouraging them into the profession, I always say "do something you like and ignore computers, because it will grind you down in a relentless, soul-destroying fashion." I'm being a bit cynical and if they showed a genuine interest I'd encourage it, but I'll be damned if I say it's the most rewarding, happy profession out there. Cos it ain't.
- projectileboy 18y ago
  No offense taken, brother. My rant stems from how shocked I am each and every day at how strongly girls are encouraged to be submissive, or even just plain stupid. People I know without kids often act like it's not an issue, "just keep 'em away from TV", but they don't see that it's everywhere: TV, radio, product packaging, billboards, etc. I was pretty blind to it myself until I had a daughter.
  - m0nty 18y ago
    "every day at how strongly girls are encouraged to be submissive, or even just plain stupid" Yup, I agree with that. My daughter discovered Xena a few years ago, then Buffy, so she doesn't fit the submissive, stupid mold at all :-) Good role models, AFAIC. There's no TV and I've always taught them to be suspicious of advertising, so that helps. But, let's face it, we all fit some kind of cultural expectations even when we don't want to.
  - jimbokun 18y ago
    In the U.S. many more women are now attending college than men. In large U.S. cities, for the first time ever, young women are out-earning men. I just don't buy that (U.S.) women are receiving and accepting a message that they are "submissive." There is still some overhang from the previous male dominated culture, but it is being rapidly eroded and may have already disappeared for the generation now attending college and/or entering the work force. I am curious to see data indicating a trend in the opposite direction.
    - shawndrost 18y ago
      "In large U.S. cities, for the first time ever, young women are out-earning men." -- interesting! citation?
      - jimbokun 18y ago
        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html "Young women in New York and several of the nation’s other largest cities who work full time have forged ahead of men in wages, according to an analysis of recent census data."
silencio 18y ago
Then a lot of "adults" really aren't adults. I've met lots of people from all walks of life, and there's really nothing separating the cretins from the nice folks. Mainstream media can be pretty disturbing. I have a bunch of friends my age (19), and I'm quite possibly the only one that puts makeup on sparingly only at special events like a concert I'm performing at - like, covering up a small blemish and putting on a teeny bit of eyeshadow to be a bit more photogenic. Apparently you're not beautiful until your face is buried under a ton of makeup. :(

silencio 18y ago

In regards to the first half of your comment, it's probably the case that a lot of professions are like that. To the second half...I haven't even graduated college and I've dealt with more than I've wanted to. Sure, with some profs and at some of the places I've worked at it was awesome - people were friendly and treated me as an equal. But I've gotten my fair share of discrimination. In fact, why do I end up writing so much about this. Lemme just copy and paste what I wrote on a similar reddit topic: I was interested in computers and programming in particular since elementary school, and since then I've been harassed about it by the most unexpected people. My parents gave up the fight but not after more than a decade, and I get irked by the various types of people I end up talking to when my job/major comes up. "You're kidding, right? You're a woman, do you know what to do?" is not that uncommon to hear, despite the decent resume with good references or a word-of-mouth recommendation from some happy client who wouldn't shut up telling them about how much they liked me and my work. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Or maybe you just..don't notice it?

m0nty 18y ago
"Or maybe you just..don't notice it?" Well, you could argue that about the discrimination I've faced in my work. Or maybe I was just working with assholes, I don't know. Or maybe it's a cultural thing, comparing the US or India to the UK (where I live). I honestly don't know, but I can say that I have not once been aware of discrimination, at least in the immediate workplace. I can't speak about rates of pay or promotion prospects, or whatever, but that's my experience.
undetected 18y ago
Once you are IN the industry, you probably won't have that problem much longer.
attack 18y ago
You are very wrong to suggest that men are not discouraged from taking this career path as well.