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Associations of Cognitive Function with Carbon Dioxide and Ventilation (2016)
- Proven 8y agoGood. Nature has a way to deal with undesirable behavior. I condemn these scientists for disclosing this finding. Now bureaucrats will hold multiple 90 minute meetings with snack and drink breaks between them. Or spend more to equip their meeting rooms to deal with this. Either way, we'll be worse off.
- crankylinuxuser 8y agoAt the PPM required for cognitive impairment, how long does someone need to be in the area for this to measurably affect them? I know at my workplace, we tend to have short meetings (thankfully!). However we inhabit the upper sections of old downtown square, which was 7 different buildings architecturally "glued" together. But when we do have meetings, they're back to back with other meetings given the shared meeting space. But this is even more sinister if what I'm thinking is correct: the toxins accumulate even if it doesn't impair the first meeting (or 3), and effects worsen through the day for anyone in there.
- buttslasher69 8y agoWow. I wonder what sleeping in a closed room does every night.
- Simon_says 8y agoA while back there was a long thread on slatestarcodex on people's anecdotes about this question.
- jfkw 8y agohttps://slatestarcodex.com/2018/08/23/carbon-dioxide-an-open-door-policy/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/08/23/carbon-dioxide-an-open...
- Proven 8y agoNothing. 4 talking people x 2 hours need more oxygen than 1 sleeping person for 8 hours
- booleandilemma 8y agoThis explains why we went with Node for our next project.
- gjs278 8y agoeven ryan dahl hesitates to use node for anything backend
- quickthrower2 8y agoDid you reply to the wrong thread?
- war1025 8y agoHe's suggesting that the impaired cognitive function from the increased CO2 is why they picked Node. (I.e: a joke)
- quickthrower2 8y agoAh ok. That went over my head, but I get it now.
- jey 8y agoHas this paper from 2015 been replicated or otherwise followed up since? I tried a quick google search but all I found seemed to be referencing this one study.
- em3rgent0rdr 8y agodidn't read it, but what if you instead crank extra O2 in the office...do people's cognitive function improve?
- acct1771 8y agoThat happens anytime, anywhere - we just haven't bothered to care to measure it yet.
- quickthrower2 8y agoWon’t help unless there is a lack of o2 (people passing out and suchlike)
- coltonv 8y agoI'm going to guess no, based on the fact that in Apollo 13 they had plenty of oxygen, but they needed to stop the buildup of CO2 or they would die, no amount of oxygen would help them, since CO2 is poisonous.
- i_am_proteus 8y agoSubmarine anecdote: we'd bump up oxygen levels a little bit to make the crew more alert. Oxygen had a max spec that we worried about because high oxygen could cause fires. Anecdotally a submarine crew is too exhausted to feel effects from CO2 when it's in spec. If atmospheric controls were down and CO2 shot up, headaches were normal. Far from a controlled experimental environment.
- ianlevesque 8y ago2 hour meetings? At my workplace anything >30 requires some serious justification.
- anonytrary 8y agoI agree. It sounds innocuous, but 2 hour meetings basically end up eating half a day. You do some work when you come in at 9, by 10 everyone's there and the meeting starts, by the time it's done, it's lunch, and you get back to work at like 1 until the end of the workday. Sitting down at 9 only to get up at 10 is almost a waste of productive hour.
- staticassertion 8y agoSure but one room is probably hosting > 2 hours of meetings in a day. Doors opening probably helps though?
- jey 8y agoMost commercial office buildings have forced air ventilation systems (in the USA).
- curtis 8y agoI've often complained that flying is the most exhausting thing you can do that involves not doing anything at all. Long meetings are number two on the list...
- WalterGR 8y agoThe abstract says nothing about exhaustion. Does the full study?
- userbinator 8y agoGetting exhausted from flying is not due to CO2, because a plane has more ventilation (measured in air changes per hour) than the majority of buildings.
- sl1ck731 8y agoI thought it was also due to micro movements of your body trying to remain stable. Kind of like driving a truck on a rocky road but at a much smaller scale for much longer.
- curtis 8y agoI've not seen that claim before but it certainly seems plausible. It does seem less tiring if you're sitting next to an empty seat rather than a person.
- travisjungroth 8y agoThat's from hypoxia. Being in an airliner is equal to being at about 5,000'. The reduced air density means less oxygen and you get fatigued (also reduces cognition, coordination, vigilance and night vision).
- caymanjim 8y agoCloser to 8000' in commercial airliners. While it's technically hypoxia, insofar as it's less oxygen than at sea level, I don't know if 8000' is enough to cause the effects you're describing. Anecdotally, I'm a fat smoker, and I don't seem to notice any of those negative effects at 8000', but I certainly notice them at around 12000' or so.
- PorterDuff 8y agoI've found that 5 minutes is about when the impairment starts.
- chroem- 8y agoIn real life this is a non-issue since all commercial buildings that have undergone any sort of renovation in the last 25 years have CO2 monitoring integrated into their HVAC control system.
- lvturner 8y agoIn which country and under which building standard? Because I can tell you, I’ve been in plenty of modern buildings all over the world where there was clearly not enough oxygen in several of the rooms.
- antisthenes 8y agoMinor nitpick, but not enough oxygen is not the same as too much CO2.
- User23 8y agoFun fact: humans can't detect low oxygen at all, which is why nitrogen gas asphyxiation is something that happens by accident.
- kozak 8y ago"Not enough oxygen" is what laypeople usually say when they experience elevated concentration of CO2.
- lvturner 8y agoNitpick accepted :-)
- caymanjim 8y agoThat's not a minor nitpick. It's important to note the difference. If you double the amount of CO2 in a room, that's still not a lot of CO2, and if you displace oxygen to double it, you've still got tons of oxygen. Humans are hyper-sensitive to higher CO2 levels, even while still getting a lot of oxygen.
- chroem- 8y ago
- mettamage 8y agoA former client of mine, Healthy Workers, is solving this problem by creating smart buildings that measure things such as CO2 and O2. They are hiring a backend developer and other non-technical roles in Amsterdam. https://healthyworkers.recruitee.com/ https://healthyworkers.recruitee.com/
- antisthenes 8y agoWhat's the competitive advantage vs just using household CO2 sensors that cost $60-100 and are portable between rooms?
- mettamage 8y agoHealthy Workers combines people data (with their explicit consent) and sensor data. It is also not only about CO2 and O2. I wouldn’t know what they are tracking now but the idea is that they track everything environmental-building related.
- antisthenes 8y agoGotcha, makes a lot more sense now. At the very least, I'd track at least 3-4 factors beyond simple CO2, so it makes sense to integrate that all at once at HVAC level rather than carry around 5 sensors.
- chroem- 8y agoBut virtually all buildings already do this. In fact, it's often part of the (legal) building code.
- swampthinker 8y agoOnly CO detectors are mandatory in buildings.
- JamesCoyne 8y agoNo. Building Codes typically refer to a standard like ASHRAE 62, which basically prescribes a fresh-air rate for a space by size and occupancy. Demand based ventilation is not common in my experience (small commercial buildings).
- 0815test 8y agoAll that extra CO2 could also raise temperature locally inside the meeting room, at least if it's got sunlight shining into it somehow. And the increased temperature will probably make the people involved feel even less comfortable and thus less able to think clearly! We'll need to develop radically new technology to scrub all this CO2 out of the planet's meeting rooms and save the world from its detrimental effects.
- saagarjha 8y agoThe greenhouse effect is not appreciable at this scale.
- leemailll 8y agoI suspect the effect kicks in much sooner than 2hrs
- PakG1 8y agoSo if I want to pull one over various people in a meeting, I need to make sure: 1. Organize a long meeting. 2. Invite as much people as possible. 3. Pitch my stuff at the end of the meeting. 4. Profit. I jest. edit: 5. Bring a small oxygen tank to keep myself sharp!
- sametmax 8y agoNo because when people are impaired, they tend to choose the path of least resistance, which is often maintaining the status quo.
- marcosdumay 8y agoSo, add some people that you know will agree with you. That has all the smell of a con artist, and some people are good on sensing this. Others aren't, and if the population of the meeting is random enough, many people will fall over it. It is also not a new discovery.
- gubbrora 8y agoSo you frame your solution as a continuation of the status quo.
- elchief 8y agoJust wait til atmospheric CO2 hits 600ppm!
- arcticbull 8y agoI guess we found out how idiocracy actually happens haha
- tjohns 8y agoThe conference rooms at my office often have CO2 sensors on the wall. In the interest of science, I discovered a few strong breaths of air next to the sensor will kick the HVAC on full blast.
- dbg31415 8y agoNot just CO2, but heat lowers performance. Every time I go into an office and the AC is set to like 75 or higher, I just feel groggy. Set it to like 72, or lower, and it's a lot easier to stay awake. 65 or so in the winter is perfect, I love it when it's brisk in the office -- I get in early intentionally and before 8 AM it's nice and cool.
- abootstrapper 8y agoGot a source on how heat lowers performance? Because anecdotally, I beg to differ. I like it around 76F.
- caymanjim 8y agoAnecdotally, every degree above 70F drastically reduces my ability to function. 76F in an office is bordering on hopeless for me. Way too hot to think.
- dbg31415 8y ago* Winter Wakes Up Your Mind--and Warm Weather Makes it Harder to Think Straight - Scientific American || https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warm-weather-makes-it-hard-think-straight/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warm-weather-make... "Despite this minimal deviation in temperature, the researchers found remarkable differences in cognitive functioning. In one lab study, participants were asked to proofread an article while they were in either a warm (77°) or a cool (67°) room. Participants in warm rooms performed significantly worse than those in cool rooms, failing to identify almost half of the spelling and grammatical errors (those in cool rooms, on the hand, only missed a quarter of the mistakes). These results suggest that even simple cognitive tasks can be adversely affected by excessive ambient warmth."
- ordu 8y agolol When it is cold enough, body starts to shake, each muscle is convulsing, consuming glucose and making it into heat. Brains use a lot of power that comes from methabolism. Could it be that human body tries to warm itself using brains to utilize glucose by doing cognitive tasks? What cognitive tasks are most energy consuming?
- tootie 8y agoI had 8 hour meetings two days in a row last week. And we were all feeling it at the end.
- ambicapter 8y agoCan't imagine what the CO2 level of Congress is like.
- ggreer 8y agoI keep seeing these studies showing that tiny increases in CO2 impair cognition, but I have trouble believing them. The US navy runs their submarines with CO2 levels that vary from 300-11,300ppm.[1] Their own studies show that CO2 levels of 4% (40,000ppm) do not affect cognition[2]: > Thus, CO2 at 40,000 ppm for 2 weeks did not affect performance on multiple tests of cognitive function in physically fit young airmen, a population probably not unlike submariners. CO2 tended to cause poor sleep, headache, and hand tremor before it caused cognitive issues. Another bit of evidence that makes me doubt these recent studies is that the levels of CO2 in your lungs are much higher than what is in the atmosphere. Exhaled air is around 5% CO2. Each breath doesn't replace 100% of the air in your lungs. If you have a container that is 5% CO2 and you replace 80% of it with air containing 400ppm CO2, you're down to 10,320ppm. Inhale 1,000ppm CO2 and your lungs will be at 10,800ppm CO2. In other words: a 250% increase in atmospheric CO2 levels only causes a 4% increase in lung CO2 levels at the beginning of a breath. If such tiny changes significantly affected cognition, we would see impairment happen in many more circumstances (such as when walking or smoking). If something's impairing cognition in stuffy rooms, I don't think it's CO2. 1. https://www.nap.edu/read/11170/chapter/5#47 https://www.nap.edu/read/11170/chapter/5#47 2. https://www.nap.edu/read/11170/chapter/5#54 https://www.nap.edu/read/11170/chapter/5#54
- lamontcg 8y agoMore recent studies than those from the 60s and 70s though have found that cognitive issues show up in different kinds of tasks: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.1104789 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/ehp.1104789 Their measures of focused activity were nearly unchanged, while measures like initiative and strategy declined somewhat at 1,000ppm and sharply at 2,500ppm.
- lamontcg 8y agoAnd this study found: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1541931214581192 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1541931214581192 "Within the limitations of this experiment, (1) breathing 4% CO2 for one hour slows information processing by impairing the response selection stage of processing and not the stimulus encoding stage and (2) with increasing time-on-task information processing is increasingly impaired and the magnitude of this effect is similar for each processing stage. These findings help define a useful model of human information processing and identify the locus of CO2 impairment." That could explain the null results found by the Navy.
- mattjaynes 8y agoDavid Heinemeier Hansson (DHH of Ruby on Rails fame) gave a great talk recently on air quality: https://youtu.be/MRqh8oLY7Ik https://youtu.be/MRqh8oLY7Ik Apparently his wife was showing signs of Formaldehyde poisoning after they moved into a newly constructed home. This motivated him to investigate the air quality in their house and he bought industrial-level air testing equipment to figure out what was going on (since many of the consumer-grade devices were wildly inaccurate). He also did a deep dive into the research on how air quality impacts cognitive and creative performance. Fascinating talk, worth watching.
- iceninenines 8y agoI had to take a matress back because they must've over-applied bromine-based fire-retardants... it was overpowering and stunk up the spare room for weeks. In new construction and furnishing, it's vital to not just buy random/cheapest supplies/products because they will kill you from lead, VOCs, PBAs, bromines and so on. Green, non-eco-washed substitutes wherever possible because every purchase matters. Ignorance of what you're buying is no excuse.
- keithpeter 8y agoJust reached 4:30 sec and he has mentioned lack of ventilation in their house, which I know to be a common problem with new build housing through dealing with condensation problems. UK: most of the bog standard double glazed windows have a little vent up at the top so you can open a fairly small slat and get a small air gap. 35min: his risk priorities are mould, particulate matter, volatile organic chemicals, co2, on the grounds that CO2 is easier to manage
- 0db532a0 8y agoThe problem is that if it’s cold enough outside that you need double glazing, then opening the slats would negate the benefit. Heat exchangers really are the only solution here, but of course the UK seems to be at least a century behind on residential building standards compared to anywhere else I’ve lived in Europe.
- danw1979 8y agoI've only read the abstract but it seemed to imply that the well ventilated office with artificially high levels of CO2 (labelled Green+ ?) resulted in higher scores than the well ventilated environment with low CO2. Am I reading this correctly ?
- 1e-9 8y agoMany residential buildings have horrible ventilation as they commonly rely on the random forces of wind and thermal gradient to force fresh air through cracks around windows and doors and through other holes in the building envelope. This can lead to long periods of time with ventilation far below ASHRAE standards. Conversely, if you are getting enough ventilation through leakage, the quality of the air may be poor due to pollen or other pollutants. One way to address this is to set up a positive pressure situation with a high quality air purifier pulling fresh outside air through a ducting system like https://www.iqair.com/sites/default/files/documents/InFlowW125InstallationInstructions_105_20_20_11_Mar2012.pdf https://www.iqair.com/sites/default/files/documents/InFlowW1.... If you don't own your home or just don't want to run a duct through your wall, you can add a window kit such as the LG COV31735301 Room Air Conditioner Exhaust Duct.