3 ms·

Depends on the software requirements you have, and perhaps on the network throughput you need. For example java 11 is not, yet, a native option in any of the B

Depends on the software requirements you have, and perhaps on the network throughput you need. For example java 11 is not, yet, a native option in any of the BSDs (OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, DF Bsd).

jbverschoor 8y ago
This is the reason I switched from FreeBSD to Debian about 20 years ago. Sad that it's still not an option.
- platform 8y ago
  java is definetely an option on all of the BSDs I mentioned. It just they did not have Java 11 ported to them yet. But now since OpenJDK 11 is ported to FreeBSD, others, will follow. Sorry if my comment was not clear.
wolrah 8y ago
IMO not having Java should be considered a positive. Java is wonderful in theory, but in practice it's likely been one of the most common recurring headaches in my IT management career. For a platform where one of the key marketing points has always been "write once, run anywhere" it sure is apparently not only easy but seemingly encouraged to write software that only runs on a specific version of the JVM, often with key security features disabled. Either Java itself sucks or Java encourages its developers to suck. I'm not sure which. Obviously not all Java applications nor all Java developers suck, but there is a larger than normal amount of suckage in the Java universe.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  > "Either Java itself sucks or Java encourages its developers to suck. I'm not sure which." Neither. Java makes it easy for developers that suck to contribute. (The subtle difference here being that it won't make a good developer lose his competency.) Incidentally this is why companies love java so much. Hiring a java developer straight out of college is much easier than hiring a C++ developer straight out of college. Arguably in the last few years Java's niche has been encroached on by other accessible languages with mild learning curves (golang, javascript/node, etc) but for years Java was the obvious choice if you wanted to hire cheap developers that could at the bare minimum fullfil the design requirements.
  - hedora 8y ago
    It definitely encourages its developers to suck. More politely, it comes with non-removable training wheels, which makes it OK if you’re getting started as a developer, but a terrible choice for projects that will require experienced developers.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      I would phrase that as "It doesn't encourage developers to get better."
      - hedora 8y ago
        Not my original wording, but it definitely includes roadblocks that prevent developers from progressing after a point. Examples: Type erasure means the standard library doesn’t quite use generics right, so you end up sprinkling unchecked casts all over the place. It is nearly impossible to handle resource lifetimes correctly, even with autoclosables. No unsigned types, so many advanced algorithms are neigh-impossible to express, let alone rediscover. Encapsulation for primitive types comes with a high runtime overhead (cache misses, gc pressure) Package-private doesn’t quite do what you want for large projects, where you want to split API implementations into multiple packages.
  - wolrah 8y ago
    > Neither. Java makes it easy for developers that suck to contribute. So do PHP and Visual Basic. Both of those languages are very well known for having a larger than normal amount of developer suckage, but they don't seem to have the same sort of fragility as Java. There are a lot of shitty Wordpress plugins out there, but never have I ran in to one that only worked on a specific narrow window of PHP releases in the same way as many terrible Java apps are with the JVM.
- ams6110 8y ago
  I've had the same experience. Whenever I have a misbehaving server, out of memory, slow performance, it almost always traces back to Java. However I don't think Java sucks necessarily. I think the sorts of software that people develop in Java, and the organizations that develop it, suck. In short, most Enterprise software sucks.
- JdeBP 8y ago
  Note that it's not a lack of Java. It's a lack of Java 11. * https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk8-jre/ https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk8-jre/ * https://supernews.freshports.org/java/linux-oracle-serverjre10/ https://supernews.freshports.org/java/linux-oracle-serverjre...
prakhunov 8y ago
I don't think there is a package yet for OpenBSD but this has changed in FreeBSD as of 3 days ago: https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk11/ https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk11/
- platform 8y ago
  ah, this is great news. Thank you. I have been monitoring this since October last year. Since now freeBSD has it, other BSDs should soon pick that up. I noticed that freeBSD is bit like a 'mothership' as far as package ports go, to the other BSDs.

Depends on the software requirements you have, and perhaps on the network throughput you need. For example java 11 is not, yet, a native option in any of the BSDs (OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, DF Bsd).

jbverschoor 8y ago

This is the reason I switched from FreeBSD to Debian about 20 years ago. Sad that it's still not an option.

platform 8y ago
java is definetely an option on all of the BSDs I mentioned. It just they did not have Java 11 ported to them yet. But now since OpenJDK 11 is ported to FreeBSD, others, will follow. Sorry if my comment was not clear.

wolrah 8y ago

IMO not having Java should be considered a positive. Java is wonderful in theory, but in practice it's likely been one of the most common recurring headaches in my IT management career. For a platform where one of the key marketing points has always been "write once, run anywhere" it sure is apparently not only easy but seemingly encouraged to write software that only runs on a specific version of the JVM, often with key security features disabled. Either Java itself sucks or Java encourages its developers to suck. I'm not sure which. Obviously not all Java applications nor all Java developers suck, but there is a larger than normal amount of suckage in the Java universe.

darkpuma 8y ago
> "Either Java itself sucks or Java encourages its developers to suck. I'm not sure which." Neither. Java makes it easy for developers that suck to contribute. (The subtle difference here being that it won't make a good developer lose his competency.) Incidentally this is why companies love java so much. Hiring a java developer straight out of college is much easier than hiring a C++ developer straight out of college. Arguably in the last few years Java's niche has been encroached on by other accessible languages with mild learning curves (golang, javascript/node, etc) but for years Java was the obvious choice if you wanted to hire cheap developers that could at the bare minimum fullfil the design requirements.
- hedora 8y ago
  It definitely encourages its developers to suck. More politely, it comes with non-removable training wheels, which makes it OK if you’re getting started as a developer, but a terrible choice for projects that will require experienced developers.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    I would phrase that as "It doesn't encourage developers to get better."
    - hedora 8y ago
      Not my original wording, but it definitely includes roadblocks that prevent developers from progressing after a point. Examples: Type erasure means the standard library doesn’t quite use generics right, so you end up sprinkling unchecked casts all over the place. It is nearly impossible to handle resource lifetimes correctly, even with autoclosables. No unsigned types, so many advanced algorithms are neigh-impossible to express, let alone rediscover. Encapsulation for primitive types comes with a high runtime overhead (cache misses, gc pressure) Package-private doesn’t quite do what you want for large projects, where you want to split API implementations into multiple packages.
- wolrah 8y ago
  > Neither. Java makes it easy for developers that suck to contribute. So do PHP and Visual Basic. Both of those languages are very well known for having a larger than normal amount of developer suckage, but they don't seem to have the same sort of fragility as Java. There are a lot of shitty Wordpress plugins out there, but never have I ran in to one that only worked on a specific narrow window of PHP releases in the same way as many terrible Java apps are with the JVM.
ams6110 8y ago
I've had the same experience. Whenever I have a misbehaving server, out of memory, slow performance, it almost always traces back to Java. However I don't think Java sucks necessarily. I think the sorts of software that people develop in Java, and the organizations that develop it, suck. In short, most Enterprise software sucks.
JdeBP 8y ago
Note that it's not a lack of Java. It's a lack of Java 11. * https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk8-jre/ https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk8-jre/ * https://supernews.freshports.org/java/linux-oracle-serverjre10/ https://supernews.freshports.org/java/linux-oracle-serverjre...

prakhunov 8y ago

I don't think there is a package yet for OpenBSD but this has changed in FreeBSD as of 3 days ago: https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk11/ https://supernews.freshports.org/java/openjdk11/

platform 8y ago
ah, this is great news. Thank you. I have been monitoring this since October last year. Since now freeBSD has it, other BSDs should soon pick that up. I noticed that freeBSD is bit like a 'mothership' as far as package ports go, to the other BSDs.