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One of the problems with a cashless society is that the banks aren't required to give you a bank account. If none of the banks will give you a bank account, an

One of the problems with a cashless society is that the banks aren't required to give you a bank account. If none of the banks will give you a bank account, and there's no such thing as cash... then you're just not allowed to have money. That shouldn't be a position that it is possible to get into.

JimDabell 8y ago
> One of the problems with a cashless society is that the banks aren't required to give you a bank account. In the UK, the nine largest banks are legally required to offer basic bank accounts specifically to cater to people who cannot otherwise get a bank account.
- pjc50 8y ago
  However, this is more complicated if you're not a UK national, and if the Home Office decides you're an illegal immigrant (a process with a deliberate high false positive rate) it can get closed. https://www.ukcisa.org.uk/blog/6538/Student-banking-Do-you-really-need-a-UK-bank-account-Is-opening-one-difficult https://www.ukcisa.org.uk/blog/6538/Student-banking-Do-you-r... gives a decent overview of the process. It also mentions the unofficial national ID of the UK, household utility bills.
  - frosted-flakes 8y ago
    I take that to mean that the UK is not switching to e-billing for utilities any time soon.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Oh, it mostly already has. The punchline is whether a printout of a PDF of something that never had a print original counts as an "original" for ID purposes in a completely adhoc adversarial system. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/270197/sup-docs-settlement.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
    - dan1234 8y ago
      We’re already there; I think the only paper bill I’ve received in the last 3 years has been my council tax bill, and that’s only because I’ve never been offered an e-billing option.
arminiusreturns 8y ago
A lot of people don't realize that in the US at least, there is a semi-secret banking blacklist, where banks will just deny you all services. I know because I managed to get on it, and then managed to get off it, no easy feat. How I got there is another story, but banks are not a friend of the people, and moves towards a cashless society give them even more power, something they already have too much of. Sidenote: I was in on bitcoin back when you could generate blocks with a CPU... and came to the conclusion that privacy of transaction was too fundamental to a good coin and abandoned bitcoin. Given central banks ability to invent money at scale, I also always thought the 50% attack was something they would work towards... and so that's the story of how I almost became a millionaire.
- antiterra 8y ago
  This might be a different list but it has a similar effect, if you[1] or your country are on it then even your ability to buy things online is reduced: https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads [1] or someone with the same name and similar residential history
- techsupporter 8y ago
  If you mean ChexSystems or TeleCheck, they’re regulated as credit reporting agencies so all of the “usual” measures for dealing with wayward CRAs work great even though they take a little longer because both of those companies are slow jerks. Check out creditboards.com for lots of ways to get those companies to straighten up.
- bhaak 8y ago
  I enjoy the "how I almost became a millionaire because of Bitcoin" stories. I've read a lot of them online and I know surprisingly many people personally that have such a story to share. Those stories tell you a lot about the person in question. How it didn't work out and how they cope with that "loss". Yours is the first where someone coped out because not being satisfied with the kind of privacy Bitcoin provides.
  - arminiusreturns 8y ago
argd678 8y ago
What’s the reason they wouldn’t give you an account? It seems like helping people get bank accounts would be what you’d want, though the IT issues arround outages and lack of network services in area is a hard one.
- notamerican 8y ago
  You can have issues opening an account in the UK if you're not allowed to get credit, since many bank accounts include free access to credit, or an overdraft facility, that you can't turn off or decline. You can be banned from getting credit pretty easily too; if you've failed to pay council fines (parking, tax, etc.), or missed a repayment on a loan, a judge can give you a ban. It can be a real problem for people who get into a bad financial position and want/need a new bank account later on.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  In the USA, not meeting minimum deposit requirements, having a bad credit history or trackrecord with banks, not paying monthly fees, and not knowing how to use a computer can all preclude someone from being able to qualify or use a bank account. I've personally seen friends struggle with all of the above, but the reloadable AMEX cards at Walmart seem to be doing well to fill in the gaps (except for not being able to direct deposit into them)
  - techsupporter 8y ago
    For what it’s worth, the Bluebird reloadable Amex cards at Wal-Mart now offer direct deposit as a feature. In case that’s relevant to anyone reading.
    - anoncoward111 8y ago
      hey nice!!! I really appreciate that info. Definitely a game changer then. I know a guy who was going to checks cashed, every week, paying those fees, cash under the mattress etc etc etc. If only he know Bluebird was around the corner! He eventually got approved at Ally
ACS_Solver 8y ago
That is incorrect for EU countries. The EU, through Directive 2014/92, mandates that banks cannot refuse basic accounts to legal EU residents (unless they believe you're laundering money or financing terror groups). I live in an essentially cashless country, but even countries where cash is still used would be very hard to live in without a bank account, so that legislation is important.
- Retra 8y ago
  Do if you're not a legal EU resident, you will be unable to purchase food/lodging/transportation?
  - vinay427 8y ago
    No, you certainly wouldn't be unable. You would not have the right to a basic bank account in the EU country, but you could use one of many possible payment methods from your home country. If you're traveling to another country in the first place, you probably have those options available to you.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    Monzo will give a bank account to pretty much anyone with a verifiable form of ID, regardless of their residency status. https://monzo.com/blog/2018/05/29/getting-bank-account-immigrant/ https://monzo.com/blog/2018/05/29/getting-bank-account-immig...
    - falsedan 8y ago
      As long as they have a reasonably recent smart phone
  - ACS_Solver 8y ago
    If you're not an EU resident, it's your own responsibility to have some valid means of payment from your home country. Which could also be cash you exchanged for the local currency, though if cash is all you have, some countries could prove difficult. Or you could find a local bank that will give you an account - they may of course do so even when not legally required. But to take an extreme case, there's nothing preventing you from getting yourself into trouble due to a lack of valid payment methods. For example, Americans have visa-free access to the EU, so nobody will check their finances, and an American could theoretically land somewhere in the EU without a payment card and only carrying US dollars, which aren't legal tender.

JimDabell 8y ago

> One of the problems with a cashless society is that the banks aren't required to give you a bank account. In the UK, the nine largest banks are legally required to offer basic bank accounts specifically to cater to people who cannot otherwise get a bank account.

pjc50 8y ago
However, this is more complicated if you're not a UK national, and if the Home Office decides you're an illegal immigrant (a process with a deliberate high false positive rate) it can get closed. https://www.ukcisa.org.uk/blog/6538/Student-banking-Do-you-really-need-a-UK-bank-account-Is-opening-one-difficult https://www.ukcisa.org.uk/blog/6538/Student-banking-Do-you-r... gives a decent overview of the process. It also mentions the unofficial national ID of the UK, household utility bills.
- frosted-flakes 8y ago
  I take that to mean that the UK is not switching to e-billing for utilities any time soon.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Oh, it mostly already has. The punchline is whether a printout of a PDF of something that never had a print original counts as an "original" for ID purposes in a completely adhoc adversarial system. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/270197/sup-docs-settlement.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
  - dan1234 8y ago
    We’re already there; I think the only paper bill I’ve received in the last 3 years has been my council tax bill, and that’s only because I’ve never been offered an e-billing option.

arminiusreturns 8y ago

A lot of people don't realize that in the US at least, there is a semi-secret banking blacklist, where banks will just deny you all services. I know because I managed to get on it, and then managed to get off it, no easy feat. How I got there is another story, but banks are not a friend of the people, and moves towards a cashless society give them even more power, something they already have too much of. Sidenote: I was in on bitcoin back when you could generate blocks with a CPU... and came to the conclusion that privacy of transaction was too fundamental to a good coin and abandoned bitcoin. Given central banks ability to invent money at scale, I also always thought the 50% attack was something they would work towards... and so that's the story of how I almost became a millionaire.

antiterra 8y ago
This might be a different list but it has a similar effect, if you[1] or your country are on it then even your ability to buy things online is reduced: https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads https://www.treasury.gov/ofac/downloads [1] or someone with the same name and similar residential history
techsupporter 8y ago
If you mean ChexSystems or TeleCheck, they’re regulated as credit reporting agencies so all of the “usual” measures for dealing with wayward CRAs work great even though they take a little longer because both of those companies are slow jerks. Check out creditboards.com for lots of ways to get those companies to straighten up.
bhaak 8y ago
I enjoy the "how I almost became a millionaire because of Bitcoin" stories. I've read a lot of them online and I know surprisingly many people personally that have such a story to share. Those stories tell you a lot about the person in question. How it didn't work out and how they cope with that "loss". Yours is the first where someone coped out because not being satisfied with the kind of privacy Bitcoin provides.
- arminiusreturns 8y ago

argd678 8y ago

What’s the reason they wouldn’t give you an account? It seems like helping people get bank accounts would be what you’d want, though the IT issues arround outages and lack of network services in area is a hard one.

notamerican 8y ago
You can have issues opening an account in the UK if you're not allowed to get credit, since many bank accounts include free access to credit, or an overdraft facility, that you can't turn off or decline. You can be banned from getting credit pretty easily too; if you've failed to pay council fines (parking, tax, etc.), or missed a repayment on a loan, a judge can give you a ban. It can be a real problem for people who get into a bad financial position and want/need a new bank account later on.
anoncoward111 8y ago
In the USA, not meeting minimum deposit requirements, having a bad credit history or trackrecord with banks, not paying monthly fees, and not knowing how to use a computer can all preclude someone from being able to qualify or use a bank account. I've personally seen friends struggle with all of the above, but the reloadable AMEX cards at Walmart seem to be doing well to fill in the gaps (except for not being able to direct deposit into them)
- techsupporter 8y ago
  For what it’s worth, the Bluebird reloadable Amex cards at Wal-Mart now offer direct deposit as a feature. In case that’s relevant to anyone reading.
  - anoncoward111 8y ago
    hey nice!!! I really appreciate that info. Definitely a game changer then. I know a guy who was going to checks cashed, every week, paying those fees, cash under the mattress etc etc etc. If only he know Bluebird was around the corner! He eventually got approved at Ally

ACS_Solver 8y ago

That is incorrect for EU countries. The EU, through Directive 2014/92, mandates that banks cannot refuse basic accounts to legal EU residents (unless they believe you're laundering money or financing terror groups). I live in an essentially cashless country, but even countries where cash is still used would be very hard to live in without a bank account, so that legislation is important.

Retra 8y ago
Do if you're not a legal EU resident, you will be unable to purchase food/lodging/transportation?
- vinay427 8y ago
  No, you certainly wouldn't be unable. You would not have the right to a basic bank account in the EU country, but you could use one of many possible payment methods from your home country. If you're traveling to another country in the first place, you probably have those options available to you.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  Monzo will give a bank account to pretty much anyone with a verifiable form of ID, regardless of their residency status. https://monzo.com/blog/2018/05/29/getting-bank-account-immigrant/ https://monzo.com/blog/2018/05/29/getting-bank-account-immig...
  - falsedan 8y ago
    As long as they have a reasonably recent smart phone
- ACS_Solver 8y ago
  If you're not an EU resident, it's your own responsibility to have some valid means of payment from your home country. Which could also be cash you exchanged for the local currency, though if cash is all you have, some countries could prove difficult. Or you could find a local bank that will give you an account - they may of course do so even when not legally required. But to take an extreme case, there's nothing preventing you from getting yourself into trouble due to a lack of valid payment methods. For example, Americans have visa-free access to the EU, so nobody will check their finances, and an American could theoretically land somewhere in the EU without a payment card and only carrying US dollars, which aren't legal tender.