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Maybe for the elite. But for middle class people like myself, I developed marketable skills, secured multiple internships, and found it easy to get a full-time

Maybe for the elite. But for middle class people like myself, I developed marketable skills, secured multiple internships, and found it easy to get a full-time job straight out of school. I had about a years worth of industry experience via internships (one for 6 months, two others 3 months each). Signaling doesn't buy you much. At least in engineering, because a technical interview will sort out whether or not you actually demonstrate basic programming skills very quick. Software Engineering is a notable exception, most other fields don't quiz as part of the job interview process: soft skills and credentials or state licenses or bar exams are relied upon more heavily. Maybe signaling matters more in these fields? Again, signaling is no measure of real skill. Obviously, like most people I'm upset about the pay-to-play scheme but in reality very, very few people choose that option. 99.9%+ of applications are not pay-to-play, so we should still hold a good deal of faith in our higher education system. It is imperfect and has many issues, but this article title is broadly incorrect about the purpose of higher education today. edit: > Researchers consistently find that most of education’s payoff comes from graduation, from crossing the academic finish line. The last year of high school is worth more than the first three; the last year of college is worth more than double the first three. This is hard to explain if employers are paying for acquired skills; do schools really wait until senior year to impart useful training? My first company that hired me out of college got a much better deal waiting for me to complete my senior year. Yes, each year isn't worth the same. This makes sense. Senior year was my capstone -- building valuable communication skills in a team environment. Year 1? I was finishing the basics of CS 101. Of course the last year is worth more than the first. Would you pay 50% the price for a half-finished version of Microsoft Word? Probably not. It'd be far less useful of a piece of software.

sanxiyn 8y ago
Yes, Software Engineering is a super special exception that does not apply anywhere else.
- JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
  That's a valid opinion, but it doesn't address the question: do other fields lean more heavily on signaling than others? Does going to a top 10 law school matter more than graduating from a Top 10 CS program?
  - sanxiyn 8y ago
    Absolutely yes, without any doubt.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    Law it's really top-14, and it matters a lot. BigLaw recruits almost exclusively out of those schools, and law has a bimodal salary distribution where BigLaw pays $180K out of school while smaller law firms and small-town law practices typically pay just $45-65K. Many other industries tend to recruit only out of top universities, and getting into them if you didn't go to one is basically impossible. Management consulting, investment banking, hedge funds, philanthropy, many managerial government positions. The way you get into these is through going to a school that places lots of people into those industries, and then work the network.
    - yomly 8y ago
      Sounds like tech to me - if you didn't see the other tech salary thread.... (at least the bimodal bit and ivy->faa[n]g route) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19393688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19393688
  - roel_v 8y ago
    "Does going to a top 10 law school matter more than graduating from a Top 10 CS program? " I have both law and software engineering degrees and I can tell you without a doubt that yes, the school you graduate from matters much more in law.
- _the_inflator 8y ago
  Yep, it is more like Yep or Nope, 1 or 0. ;)
- sorokod 8y ago
  Assuming you are not being sarcastic, could you enumerate the main reasons as to why software engineering is super special?
  - mcguire 8y ago
    I'm asuming he was sarcastic, but... "Software engineering" doesn't have much to do with either software (it's mostly generic project management) or engineering (ask an engineer: vector calculus! statics, dynamics and thermodynamics!)
TAForObvReasons 8y ago
> Software Engineering is a notable exception, most other fields don't quiz as part of the job interview process: soft skills and credentials or state licenses or bar exams are relied upon more heavily. Maybe signaling matters more in these fields? License and bar exams are more serious than people in technology are willing and ready to admit. They serve the role of quizzes because the "passing score" requires a baseline of knowledge that the quizzes attempt to establish. This isn't a matter of signaling so much as the effectiveness of the testing process. The fact that software companies cannot rely on these factors is a poor reflection of the industry. Practically speaking, there's nothing stopping the JS foundation from developing a curriculum, standard test and credential.
- ilaksh 8y ago
  The first issue is that JS has evolved every few years. For example, we went from callbacks to promises and now to async/await. Or look at how modules have evolved. Or the use of const and let vs. var. The other issue is that there are layers of other skills that also evolve every few years. So to create a "bar exam" for a front-end web engineer, for example, you would need a completely different version every two years or so. But then probably a bigger problem is that software engineering requires certain types of problem solving and to get a realistic idea of problem solving abilities of a person at large enough scale problems you would need a huge investment into the testing infrastructure and varied content. You would need sophisticated programs to test the applicants programs. And people to review code. And those tests would quickly go out of date. Then the other thing is that there is so much variation in the types of languages or frameworks or tools used, it is questionable whether it is meaningful to test on some lowest-common-denominator set of tools at all, if you could find enough agreement on such a thing (e.g. Angular vs React, React vs Vue).
  - JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
    Async/await is just syntactic sugar for Promises. A CS bar exam should just assess fundamentals -- if you have a good CS base, and problem-solving skills, you will adapt with the times as technology changes. Then, it wouldn't need to be updated to include new ES6 functionality. Besides, someone who does back-end Java doesn't need to concern themselves with language change to JavaScript. That's another reason why such an exam should be generic. I'm honestly surprised nobody has tried to make that a thing. It'd save companies so much in time and effort if they could just say "yup, this person has the credential".
ozim 8y ago
Look at what you wrote "I developed marketable skills, secured multiple internships". That does not read like school did that for you and probably you could do the same without school. How much of that CS101 was studying on your own time? Finishing school is signaling that you are person that shows up in the morning for classes and puts up years of his life to do that. By any means I am hiring developer who is signaling that he is reliable and comes to work every day vs someone who is inconsistent.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  More importantly, taking internships means you have some practice, not just theory. Not quite as green. It also signals you actually take some things seriously.
- throwaway287391 8y ago
  > Finishing school is signaling that you are person that shows up in the morning for classes Not sure about others but I tried my damnedest not to take morning classes unless I absolutely had to -- most semesters I had nothing before 11am or noon. The flexible scheduling was one of my favorite things about college. I did take one 8AM class and thinking back I have no idea how I didn't completely bomb it -- I showed up pretty sparsely after the first week or two.
  - slfnflctd 8y ago
    Honestly I think this line is total bunk. I'm quite sure hiring managers believe it to be true - many jobs that don't actually need you to have completed any degree to do the work still require one to get hired - but in my experience, people who haven't completed college are more likely to be willing to put in long hours, while those who have tend to expect/demand more time off. [Not that wanting time off is a bad thing, I just don't think it should be doled out based on whether your parents could afford to put you through school.]
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Would you go to a doctor that learned medicine form YouTube? I think the problem here is a bias due to the fact that the employment after earning their computer science degree is for many people not about the science part of it but rather about fairly mundane programming and general office work. Good luck arguing that chemistry, biology, mechanical engineering, medicine and many other fields that require specific tools and environments in order to actually study not to mention make any progress in the field are all about signaling.
ulucs 8y ago
> Signaling doesn't buy you much. At least in engineering, because a technical interview will sort out whether or not you actually demonstrate basic programming skills very quick. Doesn't everyone complain about how technical interviews only measure how well the candidate is prepared for technical interviews? With that in mind, I'd argue that the willingness to prepare for a technical interview has become just another signal. Also you go against your argument just after: > My first company that hired me out of college got a much better deal waiting for me to complete my senior year. Yes, each year isn't worth the same. This makes sense. Senior year was my capstone -- building valuable communication skills in a team environment. Firms can not measure soft skills accurately, so this returns right back into the value of the college degree as a signal. You get points for attending a school which provided a teamwork-oriented final course. It's your final grade that matters, not what you learned in that course. You might have developed better skills than the rest of the cohort, but it's meaningless if you didn't get a better grade then them. Everyone would rightfully assume that the others have better developed skills than you, because that's what the current system is able to measure. One final unrelated point: > Would you pay 50% the price for a half-finished version of Microsoft Word? Probably not. It'd be far less useful of a piece of software. The utility of added features is diminishing. It'd be worth a lot more than half, or Microsoft would just keep on piling features and raise the price quadratically (or with some power above one).
- JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
  In my mind, I probably took this too literally. Suppose only half the keys you pressed actual put a letter into the document, etc. It'd be far less useful. The 80-20 rule applies to software: 20% of the feature set is used 80% of the time. Mid-way through development, it's likely the 20% may not be complete. It was a poor analogy.
- mcguire 8y ago
  "Doesn't everyone complain about how technical interviews only measure how well the candidate is prepared for technical interviews?" Many do. I used to believe that was because they had never sat on the other side of the table and seen how many people were just trying to bluff their way through without the ability to do anything. Now, I am much more bitterly cynical.
buboard 8y ago
> secured multiple internships, and found it easy to get a full-time job straight out of school you don't get those in any school. your school's signaling secured that.
- JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
  If nobody from my school could do the job, those connections would dry up and the companies would higher and fill internship positions from elsewhere.

sanxiyn 8y ago

Yes, Software Engineering is a super special exception that does not apply anywhere else.

JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
That's a valid opinion, but it doesn't address the question: do other fields lean more heavily on signaling than others? Does going to a top 10 law school matter more than graduating from a Top 10 CS program?
- sanxiyn 8y ago
  Absolutely yes, without any doubt.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  Law it's really top-14, and it matters a lot. BigLaw recruits almost exclusively out of those schools, and law has a bimodal salary distribution where BigLaw pays $180K out of school while smaller law firms and small-town law practices typically pay just $45-65K. Many other industries tend to recruit only out of top universities, and getting into them if you didn't go to one is basically impossible. Management consulting, investment banking, hedge funds, philanthropy, many managerial government positions. The way you get into these is through going to a school that places lots of people into those industries, and then work the network.
  - yomly 8y ago
    Sounds like tech to me - if you didn't see the other tech salary thread.... (at least the bimodal bit and ivy->faa[n]g route) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19393688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19393688
- roel_v 8y ago
  "Does going to a top 10 law school matter more than graduating from a Top 10 CS program? " I have both law and software engineering degrees and I can tell you without a doubt that yes, the school you graduate from matters much more in law.
_the_inflator 8y ago
Yep, it is more like Yep or Nope, 1 or 0. ;)
sorokod 8y ago
Assuming you are not being sarcastic, could you enumerate the main reasons as to why software engineering is super special?
- mcguire 8y ago
  I'm asuming he was sarcastic, but... "Software engineering" doesn't have much to do with either software (it's mostly generic project management) or engineering (ask an engineer: vector calculus! statics, dynamics and thermodynamics!)

TAForObvReasons 8y ago

> Software Engineering is a notable exception, most other fields don't quiz as part of the job interview process: soft skills and credentials or state licenses or bar exams are relied upon more heavily. Maybe signaling matters more in these fields? License and bar exams are more serious than people in technology are willing and ready to admit. They serve the role of quizzes because the "passing score" requires a baseline of knowledge that the quizzes attempt to establish. This isn't a matter of signaling so much as the effectiveness of the testing process. The fact that software companies cannot rely on these factors is a poor reflection of the industry. Practically speaking, there's nothing stopping the JS foundation from developing a curriculum, standard test and credential.

ilaksh 8y ago
The first issue is that JS has evolved every few years. For example, we went from callbacks to promises and now to async/await. Or look at how modules have evolved. Or the use of const and let vs. var. The other issue is that there are layers of other skills that also evolve every few years. So to create a "bar exam" for a front-end web engineer, for example, you would need a completely different version every two years or so. But then probably a bigger problem is that software engineering requires certain types of problem solving and to get a realistic idea of problem solving abilities of a person at large enough scale problems you would need a huge investment into the testing infrastructure and varied content. You would need sophisticated programs to test the applicants programs. And people to review code. And those tests would quickly go out of date. Then the other thing is that there is so much variation in the types of languages or frameworks or tools used, it is questionable whether it is meaningful to test on some lowest-common-denominator set of tools at all, if you could find enough agreement on such a thing (e.g. Angular vs React, React vs Vue).
- JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
  Async/await is just syntactic sugar for Promises. A CS bar exam should just assess fundamentals -- if you have a good CS base, and problem-solving skills, you will adapt with the times as technology changes. Then, it wouldn't need to be updated to include new ES6 functionality. Besides, someone who does back-end Java doesn't need to concern themselves with language change to JavaScript. That's another reason why such an exam should be generic. I'm honestly surprised nobody has tried to make that a thing. It'd save companies so much in time and effort if they could just say "yup, this person has the credential".

ozim 8y ago

Look at what you wrote "I developed marketable skills, secured multiple internships". That does not read like school did that for you and probably you could do the same without school. How much of that CS101 was studying on your own time? Finishing school is signaling that you are person that shows up in the morning for classes and puts up years of his life to do that. By any means I am hiring developer who is signaling that he is reliable and comes to work every day vs someone who is inconsistent.

AstralStorm 8y ago
More importantly, taking internships means you have some practice, not just theory. Not quite as green. It also signals you actually take some things seriously.
throwaway287391 8y ago
> Finishing school is signaling that you are person that shows up in the morning for classes Not sure about others but I tried my damnedest not to take morning classes unless I absolutely had to -- most semesters I had nothing before 11am or noon. The flexible scheduling was one of my favorite things about college. I did take one 8AM class and thinking back I have no idea how I didn't completely bomb it -- I showed up pretty sparsely after the first week or two.
- slfnflctd 8y ago
  Honestly I think this line is total bunk. I'm quite sure hiring managers believe it to be true - many jobs that don't actually need you to have completed any degree to do the work still require one to get hired - but in my experience, people who haven't completed college are more likely to be willing to put in long hours, while those who have tend to expect/demand more time off. [Not that wanting time off is a bad thing, I just don't think it should be doled out based on whether your parents could afford to put you through school.]
dogma1138 8y ago
Would you go to a doctor that learned medicine form YouTube? I think the problem here is a bias due to the fact that the employment after earning their computer science degree is for many people not about the science part of it but rather about fairly mundane programming and general office work. Good luck arguing that chemistry, biology, mechanical engineering, medicine and many other fields that require specific tools and environments in order to actually study not to mention make any progress in the field are all about signaling.

ulucs 8y ago

> Signaling doesn't buy you much. At least in engineering, because a technical interview will sort out whether or not you actually demonstrate basic programming skills very quick. Doesn't everyone complain about how technical interviews only measure how well the candidate is prepared for technical interviews? With that in mind, I'd argue that the willingness to prepare for a technical interview has become just another signal. Also you go against your argument just after: > My first company that hired me out of college got a much better deal waiting for me to complete my senior year. Yes, each year isn't worth the same. This makes sense. Senior year was my capstone -- building valuable communication skills in a team environment. Firms can not measure soft skills accurately, so this returns right back into the value of the college degree as a signal. You get points for attending a school which provided a teamwork-oriented final course. It's your final grade that matters, not what you learned in that course. You might have developed better skills than the rest of the cohort, but it's meaningless if you didn't get a better grade then them. Everyone would rightfully assume that the others have better developed skills than you, because that's what the current system is able to measure. One final unrelated point: > Would you pay 50% the price for a half-finished version of Microsoft Word? Probably not. It'd be far less useful of a piece of software. The utility of added features is diminishing. It'd be worth a lot more than half, or Microsoft would just keep on piling features and raise the price quadratically (or with some power above one).

JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
In my mind, I probably took this too literally. Suppose only half the keys you pressed actual put a letter into the document, etc. It'd be far less useful. The 80-20 rule applies to software: 20% of the feature set is used 80% of the time. Mid-way through development, it's likely the 20% may not be complete. It was a poor analogy.
mcguire 8y ago
"Doesn't everyone complain about how technical interviews only measure how well the candidate is prepared for technical interviews?" Many do. I used to believe that was because they had never sat on the other side of the table and seen how many people were just trying to bluff their way through without the ability to do anything. Now, I am much more bitterly cynical.

buboard 8y ago

> secured multiple internships, and found it easy to get a full-time job straight out of school you don't get those in any school. your school's signaling secured that.

JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
If nobody from my school could do the job, those connections would dry up and the companies would higher and fill internship positions from elsewhere.