7 ms·

> 4chan and 8chan have been linked to almost all of the white nationalist and incel shooters of the past decade. You can say the same about Twitter and Faceboo

> 4chan and 8chan have been linked to almost all of the white nationalist and incel shooters of the past decade. You can say the same about Twitter and Facebook. In fact, the guy had a Twitter where he posted guns and ammunition with slogans on it, days earlier. Had it received more attention, this could've possibly been prevented. > At some point, you need to recognize that what's happening on those boards isn't "free speech", it's "incitement" to commit violent acts, and that has never been protected by any of the free speech regimes, even in the U.S. New Zealand's free speech rights are not as broad or strong as they are in the US. It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. Having said that, I was pretty shocked about the reaction on 8chan. I haven't been there before. It's pretty sad to see.

growlist 8y ago
> I was pretty shocked about the reaction on 8chan. I haven't been there before. It's pretty sad to see. You have no idea who is posting there, or why, and yet you take the posts at face value? Interesting.
- gridlockd 8y ago
  Who says I take it at face value? Even if it was 100% non-serious shitposting, it would be sad. I guess you're implying though that there's some sort of elaborate false-flag operation going on there?
faissaloo 8y ago
>It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. As someone who frequents 8chan, I can tell you this categorically is not the case and /pol/acks are very serious.
- gridlockd 8y ago
  "Being serious" about their own beliefs is different from taking another anonymous poster serious. On there you have literal Nazis, MAGA people and white identitarians all disagreeing and trolling each other. They can't even agree on everything being a Jewish conspiracy.
  - faissaloo 8y ago
    They don't have to agree on every point to be a danger.
    - gridlockd 8y ago
      That's besides the point. Individually, they don't have to agree on anything and still pose a danger. What you can't say is that this is some sort of organization that poses a threat as such. It is a bunch of random people on the internet that do not know each other and that vaguely share certain beliefs.
      - faissaloo 8y ago
        They share those beliefs because they gave each other those beliefs, they didn't come out of nowhere. People go into /pol/ having some unconventional views on immigration and come out full blown fascists. There's no need for some 'evil organisation' like you're imagining.
        snvzz 8y ago
        It's more like, fascists and such come to /pol/ to post their garbage, and meet well-spoken anons that oppose their views and expose the flaws of their arguments. This is an obvious advantage to all of this happening in the open, over it happening in some members-only curated hate forum where any voice of reason is just removed and banned. I'm baffled with how irrational some people can get, irresponsibly calling for the suppression of public, anonymous image boards.
        8y ago
gamblor956 8y ago
You can say the same about Twitter and Facebook. In fact, the guy had a Twitter where he posted guns and ammunition with slogans on it, days earlier. Had it received more attention, this could've possibly been prevented. That's not true, and it's notable that you had to create a new account just to make this FUD claim. Those murderers may all have used Twitter and Facebook to try to disseminate their idea vomit, but they were radicalized and incited by 4chan and/or 8chan. Also, Twitter and Facebook make the effort to remove those posts once they are made aware of them. 4chan and 8chan revel in keeping up those promote, and even promote them to show just how "free speech" they are. It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. More than a dozen mass murderers in the past few years took 4chan and 8chan seriously enough to murder hundreds of people. Mass murder might be an abstract concept to basement dwellers, but I know people who were shot at in the Santa Barbara, Vegas, and Thousand Oaks shooting, and it sure as fuck isn't an abstract concept to me or the thousands of other people who knew the victims of those shootings.
- setquk 8y ago
  I've heard the same horrific shit in casual conversation in numerous pubs in the UK in the last 30 years and the people in there certainly don't know what 4chan or 8chan are. In fact the horrible things pre-dated the proliferation of internet connectivity. This isn't a specific platform problem but a problem with a subset of humanity.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    That's true. But people engaging in "casual" conversation over beer aren't inciting each other to commit violent acts of hate. But in those rare instances where a bar crosses over into openly supporting that type of speech, the police start taking an interest and monitoring that bar and its customers. And if a line gets crossed with respect to incitement, conspiracy, etc., the local municipality will usually pull the bar's liquor license and get it shut down to prevent future such crimes from being organized or incited at that bar. So, really, you're actually quite spot on with the bar analogy. 4chan/8chan are exactly like a skinhead bar that's getting shutdown because the customers kept inciting each other to kill people and actually followed through.
tuxxy 8y ago
> It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. No. It used to be like this. Maybe in the mid-2000s when 4chan was first getting popular, it could have been seen as this. It might have been seen like this during the early 2010s, does anyone remember Anonymous and how it started basically from /b/? It used to be a troll site -- it's not anymore. It's literally a cesspool of white supremacy. Seriously, go read what's on /pol/ right now. It's not shock value, it's sympathy.
- def_true_false 8y ago
  4chan is not just /pol/.
- Konnstann 8y ago
  /pol/ is literally the containment board for serious fascism/racist/etc. 99% of the rest of the boards is porn, legitimate conversation (for the sfw boards) or shitposting from both sides of the political spectrum
  - krapp 8y ago
    There's no such thing as a "containment board." Nothing and no one is actually being contained, and the culture from popular boards (which /pol/ is) bleeds out to the others all the time.
  - snvzz 8y ago
    >fascism/racist/etc. Do get argued against in /pol/ all the time. It literally acts as a safeguard against these twisted beliefs. If it doesn't happen in 4chan, then I'm worried. Because these fascists/racists/etc. might end up in a members-only, non-public-viewable fascist/racist/etc echo chamber, with not a trace of voices of reason.
kthejoker2 8y ago
Advocacy for violent action is absolutely protected in America, see Brandenberg v Ohio. It's only not protected if it's likely to cause "imminent" action eg yelling fire in a theater.

growlist 8y ago

> I was pretty shocked about the reaction on 8chan. I haven't been there before. It's pretty sad to see. You have no idea who is posting there, or why, and yet you take the posts at face value? Interesting.

gridlockd 8y ago
Who says I take it at face value? Even if it was 100% non-serious shitposting, it would be sad. I guess you're implying though that there's some sort of elaborate false-flag operation going on there?

faissaloo 8y ago

>It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. As someone who frequents 8chan, I can tell you this categorically is not the case and /pol/acks are very serious.

gridlockd 8y ago
"Being serious" about their own beliefs is different from taking another anonymous poster serious. On there you have literal Nazis, MAGA people and white identitarians all disagreeing and trolling each other. They can't even agree on everything being a Jewish conspiracy.
- faissaloo 8y ago
  They don't have to agree on every point to be a danger.
  - gridlockd 8y ago
    That's besides the point. Individually, they don't have to agree on anything and still pose a danger. What you can't say is that this is some sort of organization that poses a threat as such. It is a bunch of random people on the internet that do not know each other and that vaguely share certain beliefs.
    - faissaloo 8y ago
      They share those beliefs because they gave each other those beliefs, they didn't come out of nowhere. People go into /pol/ having some unconventional views on immigration and come out full blown fascists. There's no need for some 'evil organisation' like you're imagining.
      - snvzz 8y ago
        It's more like, fascists and such come to /pol/ to post their garbage, and meet well-spoken anons that oppose their views and expose the flaws of their arguments. This is an obvious advantage to all of this happening in the open, over it happening in some members-only curated hate forum where any voice of reason is just removed and banned. I'm baffled with how irrational some people can get, irresponsibly calling for the suppression of public, anonymous image boards.
        8y ago

gamblor956 8y ago

You can say the same about Twitter and Facebook. In fact, the guy had a Twitter where he posted guns and ammunition with slogans on it, days earlier. Had it received more attention, this could've possibly been prevented. That's not true, and it's notable that you had to create a new account just to make this FUD claim. Those murderers may all have used Twitter and Facebook to try to disseminate their idea vomit, but they were radicalized and incited by 4chan and/or 8chan. Also, Twitter and Facebook make the effort to remove those posts once they are made aware of them. 4chan and 8chan revel in keeping up those promote, and even promote them to show just how "free speech" they are. It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. More than a dozen mass murderers in the past few years took 4chan and 8chan seriously enough to murder hundreds of people. Mass murder might be an abstract concept to basement dwellers, but I know people who were shot at in the Santa Barbara, Vegas, and Thousand Oaks shooting, and it sure as fuck isn't an abstract concept to me or the thousands of other people who knew the victims of those shootings.

setquk 8y ago
I've heard the same horrific shit in casual conversation in numerous pubs in the UK in the last 30 years and the people in there certainly don't know what 4chan or 8chan are. In fact the horrible things pre-dated the proliferation of internet connectivity. This isn't a specific platform problem but a problem with a subset of humanity.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  That's true. But people engaging in "casual" conversation over beer aren't inciting each other to commit violent acts of hate. But in those rare instances where a bar crosses over into openly supporting that type of speech, the police start taking an interest and monitoring that bar and its customers. And if a line gets crossed with respect to incitement, conspiracy, etc., the local municipality will usually pull the bar's liquor license and get it shut down to prevent future such crimes from being organized or incited at that bar. So, really, you're actually quite spot on with the bar analogy. 4chan/8chan are exactly like a skinhead bar that's getting shutdown because the customers kept inciting each other to kill people and actually followed through.

tuxxy 8y ago

> It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. No. It used to be like this. Maybe in the mid-2000s when 4chan was first getting popular, it could have been seen as this. It might have been seen like this during the early 2010s, does anyone remember Anonymous and how it started basically from /b/? It used to be a troll site -- it's not anymore. It's literally a cesspool of white supremacy. Seriously, go read what's on /pol/ right now. It's not shock value, it's sympathy.

def_true_false 8y ago
4chan is not just /pol/.
Konnstann 8y ago
/pol/ is literally the containment board for serious fascism/racist/etc. 99% of the rest of the boards is porn, legitimate conversation (for the sfw boards) or shitposting from both sides of the political spectrum
- krapp 8y ago
  There's no such thing as a "containment board." Nothing and no one is actually being contained, and the culture from popular boards (which /pol/ is) bleeds out to the others all the time.
- snvzz 8y ago
  >fascism/racist/etc. Do get argued against in /pol/ all the time. It literally acts as a safeguard against these twisted beliefs. If it doesn't happen in 4chan, then I'm worried. Because these fascists/racists/etc. might end up in a members-only, non-public-viewable fascist/racist/etc echo chamber, with not a trace of voices of reason.

kthejoker2 8y ago

Advocacy for violent action is absolutely protected in America, see Brandenberg v Ohio. It's only not protected if it's likely to cause "imminent" action eg yelling fire in a theater.