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4chan has been blocked in NZ “for security reasons”
- snvzz 8y agoThat anybody'd even think to block a website on such grounds is worrying. That it actually happened is alarming.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- gamblor956 8y ago4chan and 8chan have been linked to almost all of the white nationalist and incel shooters of the past decade. At some point, you need to recognize that what's happening on those boards isn't "free speech", it's "incitement" to commit violent acts, and that has never been protected by any of the free speech regimes, even in the U.S. New Zealand's free speech rights are not as broad or strong as they are in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if 4chan and 8chan find themselves blocked across most of the globe by the end of the year.
- gridlockd 8y ago> 4chan and 8chan have been linked to almost all of the white nationalist and incel shooters of the past decade. You can say the same about Twitter and Facebook. In fact, the guy had a Twitter where he posted guns and ammunition with slogans on it, days earlier. Had it received more attention, this could've possibly been prevented. > At some point, you need to recognize that what's happening on those boards isn't "free speech", it's "incitement" to commit violent acts, and that has never been protected by any of the free speech regimes, even in the U.S. New Zealand's free speech rights are not as broad or strong as they are in the US. It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. Having said that, I was pretty shocked about the reaction on 8chan. I haven't been there before. It's pretty sad to see.
- growlist 8y ago> I was pretty shocked about the reaction on 8chan. I haven't been there before. It's pretty sad to see. You have no idea who is posting there, or why, and yet you take the posts at face value? Interesting.
- gridlockd 8y agoWho says I take it at face value? Even if it was 100% non-serious shitposting, it would be sad. I guess you're implying though that there's some sort of elaborate false-flag operation going on there?
- faissaloo 8y ago>It's a bunch of anonymous people posting crap, often for shock value. Sure, there's incitement on there, but nobody takes anybody serious. As someone who frequents 8chan, I can tell you this categorically is not the case and /pol/acks are very serious.
- gridlockd 8y ago"Being serious" about their own beliefs is different from taking another anonymous poster serious. On there you have literal Nazis, MAGA people and white identitarians all disagreeing and trolling each other. They can't even agree on everything being a Jewish conspiracy.
- faissaloo 8y agoThey don't have to agree on every point to be a danger.
- gridlockd 8y agoThat's besides the point. Individually, they don't have to agree on anything and still pose a danger. What you can't say is that this is some sort of organization that poses a threat as such. It is a bunch of random people on the internet that do not know each other and that vaguely share certain beliefs.
- kolbe 8y agoBlaming an entire community for individual actions is dangerous. Sometimes it is called for, but first I'd like to see a real honest analysis about why these communities are responsible for a significantly greater number of homicides that do not happen in other acceptable communities.
- odessacubbage 8y agohigher rates of serious mental illnesses among the userbase. anon sites are highly appealing to people on the autistic spectrum in particular for a variety of reasons, i think that the concept of autistic burnout that was outlined in this post >https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19311970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19311970 could have a lot to do with that. but also the posting style itself is attractive to fringe personalities of all sorts. there is no cumulative reward to anything you post, you don't get karma or followers; you maybe get a few laughs or are called a retard but that's it. on the flipside, there's also virtually no disincentive since short of breaking the law, nothing you say really matters. i personally find it much easier to have positive interactions on anon sites and have made many good friends that way. however, possibly due to the high rates of comorbidity among asd individuals (depressive and anxiety disorders are the rule rather that the exception) you end up with a lot of people with varying degrees of instability and, anecdotally, a not insignificant number of people with more serious conditions like schizophrenia. iirc, both james harper mercer and elliot roger were asd; they were also both fucking losers but that goes without saying i believe that imageboards are highly valuable and that the problems that can be seen within them are reflective of greater societal issues that we refuse to acknowledge.
- RankingMember 8y agoThe problem with the seemingly obvious solution of blocking sites like 4chan is that the people with these hateful sentiments don't cease to exist when their gathering place gets blocked- they just move to another outlet. Does it make sense to engage in an endless game of whack-a-mole when you could, rather, recognize the intelligence value in what is essentially a honeypot?
- ozzyman700 8y agoI have used 4chan almost every day since 7th grade, it is an anime imageposting forum with related hobby boards. Without it, I would not be nearly as interested in OSS development or RMS' contributions to GNU+LINUX. There are boards which tend towards topics you may consider "incitement to commit violent acts" but this is a function of a website allowing user content. HN or Reddit or any other popular website could have been used for this announcement just the same. Removing a website will not remove the people who use it, they will find other places.
- StanislavPetrov 8y agoIts absolutely free speech and is the bedrock of a free society.
- seem_2211 8y agoShutting down a largely toxic website that fuels the flames of extremism is an order of magnitude less alarming than 50+ people losing their lives. I don't really see much value lost in taking 4chan down, just like it's not a big deal if Stormfront or an Isis affiliated site was blocked. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want, with no threat of consequences.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- freehunter 8y agoIn addition, New Zealand does not have have a blanket freedom of speech guarantee. In fact their laws specifically say speech can be suppressed to protect public safety.
- NikkiA 8y agoIs it even freedom of speech? The users aren't being banned, they're free to go elsewhere like twitter and take their lumps with their precious hate speech.
- insickness 8y agoThat's like saying that the government can ban a newspaper because, after all, people can just read another newspaper.
- reallydude 8y agoWell, there are an infinite number of newspapers via the internet, so that's a valid comparison. It's not a slippery slope, when the infrastructure to deliver a message is not affected.
- icebraining 8y agoIf it has no effect on speech, what's the point of banning it?
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- 6djeks 8y agoPeople here agree with blocking 4chan (a very diverse community, full of all kinds of people), but then they think the UK blocking ISIS propaganda websites is abhorrent censorship.
- faissaloo 8y agoHave you considered that perhaps people's opinions are just changing?
- 6djeks 8y agoI don't, since there have been several acts of Islamic terrorism in Europe these last years and they weren't enough to change anybody's opinion. I don't believe this particular case is enough to make people support censorship on the Internet. To me, this is simply hypocrisy.
- faissaloo 8y agoSure, but none of them were directly related to the internal political climate in the West.
- seszett 8y ago> there have been several acts of Islamic terrorism in Europe these last years and they weren't enough to change anybody's opinion I'm not sure where you got this idea from, but it's wrong.
- mastax 8y agoHave you considered that it could be different people posting those different opinions?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- quantummkv 8y agoIt's not surprising really. In times like these the governments have to be seen do something least they get crucified on twitter by peace loving people for things beyond their control. Since the governments can't really do anything else in the real world, they take to banning sites with edgy reputations. The fact that banning 4chan won't solve anything isn't lost on anyone with a working mind, especially not the government. But hey, that's how they stop the violent peace protests and not loose the next election in advance. Everyone wins here. The terrorists win, the government gets popularity, the peace loving people get internet brownie points and moral satisfaction to overcome their insomnia till the next time, the media gets their clicks and ad revenue and the people on 4chan get their kicks.
- icebraining 8y agoOthers have pointed out that the government doesn't seem to have banned anything.
- lostlogin 8y agoSome people’s first knowledge of the attack was that link being sent to them. I’m not sure what to think of the block (I don’t seem to have been blocked) but wanting to preventing the videos spread seems reasonable. I think it’s too late now though. Edit: I am blocked from some sites.
- Razengan 8y agoYes, banning websites, instead of weapons... Snuffing the Medium will not remove the Cause nor the Means.
- icebraining 8y agoNZ does strictly regulate weapons.
- Giorgi 8y agoReddit itself is being censored right now banning users left and right due to shooting video
- danso 8y agoJust noticed r/watchpeopledie was banned about an hour ago: https://reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/b1hjtn/rwatchpeopledie_has_been_banned_please_discuss/ https://reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/b1hjtn/rwatchpe... Which makes sense, if Reddit wants to ban the Christchurch video. Banning just that video and not the many others posted and discussed daily would be a difficult needle to thread as a coherent policy.
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoThis event doesn't seem to change the moral justification, or otherwise, for r/watchpeopledie? So why ban the sub now, rather than impose heavy moderation (or indeed do nothing?)?
- danso 8y agoI'm arguing that there isn't a particular moral justification; it's driven by public relations. And one can hardly claim that Reddit was caught unawares by the potential for controversy -- r/watchpeopledie was quarantined half a year ago https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-quarantine-subs-toxic-controversial-moderators-1144663 https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-quarantine-subs-toxic-contro...
- LegendaryPatMan 8y agoBut not 8chan? Where he was a user?
- ganeshkrishnan 8y agoYou are right, Users like these were booted out of 4chan and formed 8chan. 4chan got it because it's more popular
- mrguyorama 8y agoHave you never been to the /pol/ board? 4chan is very much still a hate filled place that encourages harmful actions.
- jack1243star 8y agoHave you never been to a board other than /pol/? There's plenty of other harmless exchanges going on. 4chan is not primarily a political site.
- sdinsn 8y ago> a hate filled place that encourages harmful actions. That describes pretty much every online community. I've seen a lot of hate, real threats, etc. on Facebook
- 8y ago
- yingw787 8y agoFirst, my condolences to all the affected. Nobody should experience a shooting, least of all a mass shooting in a place of worship against innocent people, including children, in a coordinated attack by foreign organizations. I hope the NZ government will grind the organizations responsible for this attack to dust, with help from their friends and allies and our taxpayer dollars. Second, it's very important to not be taken advantage of. Whether it's funeral homes raising the prices of coffins, or governments taking away civil liberties, people have a habit of accepting bad outcomes because they (very understandably) can't think straight. Oftentimes, those decisions are very difficult to reverse when things calm down and the scales fall from your eyes. An alert, vigilant citizenry is the keystone for a democratic society. If I was the NZ government, I'd be very interested in screening foreign travel into NZ and banning firearms on arrivals. I'd also be very interested in what the AUS government will be doing about domestic terrorism and spillover, and would scream for greater intelligence sharing. I'm highly skeptical that banning a website will even partially address this issue; I'd rather honeypot it and trace any terror cells for physical locations. And I would increase funding for domestic security, and demand machine-readable receipts for said funding available to anybody with the proper security clearance. There's no unicorn technical solution to the problem of terror and fear. Technical solutions must be weaved into an overall change in social paradigms and political strategy to address the task at hand. I do think that's our place in this world.
- o10449366 8y agoWhy do Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, and YouTube continue to turn a blind eye to the hate that populate their platforms? Why do they continue to enable them? The only argument I've heard is that regulating speech is a slippery slope, but I don't find that very persuasive. https://twitter.com/fraser_anning https://twitter.com/fraser_anning It makes me incredibly sad how blatant calls for violence and racist and backwards ideologies are freely pushed on Twitter. Please stop giving these people a platform.
- LifeLiverTransp 8y agoIf you dont like free speach- why not relocate to iran, saudi arabia, russia or north-korea, where they hold your opinion on control? Serious question. One is not bound by birth to the country one lifes in.
- steveeq1 8y agoYou're also going to ban the hate in rap music, right?
- growlist 8y agoControversial opinion incoming: perhaps the audience for sites like 4chan/8chan reflects a curiosity created to some extent by the ever narrowing range of permitted news topics allowed by the MSM.
- mempko 8y agoMSM has always had a narrow range of news topics allowed. Narrow range with vigorous debate arguments inside that range. This isn't new. So what is new? The internet is 30 years old now. So that's not new. My controversial opinion is this: Pro-military and nationalist propaganda campaigns by the military since 2001, including a major push into video games, has radicalized a disenfranchised youth, who are seeing their world worse off than their parents. In other words, a military recruitment campaign went awry.
- RandomGuyDTB 8y agoA range which has been narrowing recently, meanwhile the chans have been popular for decades now. I agree with you in part; 4 & 8 have been gaining popularity because people just don't trust the news, but it's not because of fake news that people are joining. It's because the news doesn't agree with them.
- rwz 8y agoI'm pretty sure it's broader than this. It's a narrowing range of opinions that are allowed in public discourse. It doesn't change people's minds, it changes what they can and cannot say without risking their careers and public standing. It causes people to internalize their opinions. That leads to resentment and the resentment fosters the intensity of the feelings and pushes people into extremist territory. The extremism will always find the outlet, no matter how hard you try to control it. Think of Gab for example. The site has been described as "extremist friendly" or a "safe haven" for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right. The only reason the site exists in the first place, is that those people were pushed out from Twitter, outside of the realm of "allowed" mainstream opinions. The problem is that by pushing them out, you don't make them disappear, you make them less visible and more radicalised and dangerous.
- 781 8y agoLeading media, New York Times, The Guardian, Washington Post are calling for immediate and drastic action against 8chan. It's only a matter of time until it will be shutdown.
- snvzz 8y agoA bunch of Anons and Pseudonyms exercising freedom of speech is extremely annoying to some. They were waiting for an excuse.
- Mr_Shiba 8y ago> exercising freedom of speech uuughh..
- ChillBoi 8y agoFreedom of speech should always be legal
- gamblor956 8y agoIncitement is not, nor has it ever, been protected speech. Even in the US, which originated the concept of free speech as a fundamental human right.
- deogeo 8y agoIn the US, incitement is a very narrow exception. According to a first-amendment lawyer: > In America, under the First Amendment, I can say something like "if Donald Trump gets elected, someone should assassinate him for the good of the nation." That statement may be immoral, and destructive of the very American values it purports to defend, but unless it calls for imminent action or expresses an objectively credible intent to do harm, it's protected speech. Source: https://www.popehat.com/2016/08/09/lawsplainer-no-donald-trumps-second-amendment-comment-isnt-criminal/ https://www.popehat.com/2016/08/09/lawsplainer-no-donald-tru...
- 8y ago
- ripdog 8y agoLink is inaccurate. 4chan and 8chan are not blocked on my NZ home connection. I can only presume this is a preemptive action by certain ISPs. There is no mandatory internet filter in NZ.
- philip1209 8y agoDo you use custom DNS? It's possible that they're just modifying the DNS servers of ISPS.
- ripdog 8y agoNow that you mention it, I do use unbound on my router. I should check to see if you're right, though I can't right now. There is no mandatory block in place, that much I am sure. Such a thing could not be put in place without me hearing about it, I'm sure about that.
- r721 8y ago>Confirmed. NZ ISPs are blocking access to Liveleak, 4chan, 8ch, a certain farm, Mixtape, Mega, and many other sites that are not complying immediately with the takedown orders. >Even @Bitchute is removing the video mirrors. https://twitter.com/eldarmark/status/1106463828768747520 https://twitter.com/eldarmark/status/1106463828768747520 >Earlier today Bush said he was aware that footage of the shooting had appeared on social media and police were doing everything they could to get it removed. >"It shouldn't be in the public domain." >Facebook Australia-New Zealand policy director Mia Garlick said videos which appeared to show the Christchurch shootings had been taken down. >"New Zealand Police alerted us to a video on Facebook shortly after the livestream commenced and we quickly removed both the shooter's Facebook and Instagram accounts and the video." >Spark managing director Simon Moutter said the company was working to close off websites attempting to distribute the footage. >"Our Spark security experts are working hard to close off the websites attempting to distribute the hateful stuff originating from the perpetrators of the massacre in Christchurch. We hope it causes minimal inconvenience to legitimate internet use by our customers." >Vodafone NZ spokesman Richard Llewellyn said: "Industry players are working at a technical level now to block some of the hate sites involved in this content." >Spark spokesman Andrew Pirie said technical staff had identified three primary sites where footage had been posted but there were a number of "copycat" sites popping up. >The internet providers had joined forces to block access to these sites, he said. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12213076 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&object...
- snvzz 8y agoThey're using the chance to get every site they can blocked. It's a new take on the good old "think of the children" to erase anything they'd like to for everybody, children or not.
- james_s_tayler 8y agoAnd that's why I'm getting 503 on LiveLeak....
- throwawaymanbot 8y agoGOOD! It's about time someone took these sites down a peg.
- ripdog 8y agoKiwi here. This block was not initiated by the government, as far as I can tell. I believe certain ISPs blocked the sites preemptively, as the block is not in place on my connection. Thankfully, NZ has no mandatory internet filtering, though the department of internal affairs offers a child porn blocklist which some ISPs apply.
- lostlogin 8y ago> the block is not in place on my connection. Spark (NZ ISP) gets there ok for me. Edit: on further testing, some things are broken. 4Chan works fine, which is puzzling.
- r721 8y agoSpark managing director Simon Moutter: >Our Spark security experts are working hard to close off the websites attempting to distribute the hateful stuff originating from the perpetrators of the massacre in Christchurch. We hope it causes minimal inconvenience to legitimate internet use by our customers. https://twitter.com/simonmoutter/status/1106418640167952385 https://twitter.com/simonmoutter/status/1106418640167952385
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago"working hard to close off ..." Suggests ongoing and continuous effort, but that thread suggests it's a simple DNS blackhole. I imagine they added the domain(s) to their blacklist and flushed the cache (or removed specific entries). And this doesn't prevent access. Sounds like using a tragedy for marketing. Maybe I'm being too cynical?
- lostlogin 8y agoYou can’t be too cynical. If you aren’t already aware, Spark was part of Telecom before the NZ government broke it up. The then CEO controversially described using confusion as a marketing strategy. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10380894 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&...
- b1r6 8y agoWhy do these people think censorship works? The more you don't want me to see it, the harder I will try to see it. I think this is pretty universal human nature. Instead let's use this as a learning opportunity.
- ydnaclementine 8y agodelete pol
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoWon't people just use another forum. It might disrupt things briefly but doesn't seem like a solution to anything much except for those running the chans escaping the heat, and politicians who will say "look that hate forum is gone, problem solved; vote me!".
- robocat 8y agoContext: No similar event has occurred in New Zealand before. Guns are not readily available in New Zealand. You can get one suitable for sport, but it is a serious process to get your license first. I presume these guns must have been illegally imported from somewhere. I think New Zealanders are mostly reasonably liberal, even laid-back, although we do have our share of "rednecks" too. Size, geography, and population of NZ is somewhat similar to Oregon. Generally our government is reasonably well run and the less fortunate get some care: I suspect because the families and friends of our politicians have varied backgrounds (it is difficult for politicians to live in an elite bubble). Generally we don't like being told what to do by our government, or anyone from overseas. Personal opinion: I am from Christchurch, and I think censorship is dangerous, but there needs to be some way to prevent the easy access to forums and videos of violence, hatred, and abuse. I don't want my friends, or their family watching this mentally damaging video. I know friends and the children of friends that have watched the livestreamed video, because it is easily available. This block is unprecedented here, and has little legal or technical infrastructure in place to enforce it. NZ will sort our shit out about this, hopefully without too much interference from the societies that caused this atrocity in the first place.
- insickness 8y ago> there needs to be some way to prevent the easy access to forums and videos of violence, hated, and abuse. Why? There is no evidence viewing it leads to violence while there is plenty of evidence of the dangers of censorship. I feel like we are back in the 80s with the PMRC clutching their pearls, talking about how heavy metal music is causing children to worship the devil.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- subsection1h 8y agoThere is no evidence viewing it leads to violence Media Contagion Is Factor in Mass Shootings: https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2016/08/media-contagion https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2016/08/media-contag... This is the second time in two days that I've had to correct a science-illiterate HN user who claimed that a position that is held by many, if not most, relevant researchers is not supported by any evidence. And I was downvoted yesterday. What the fuck happened to this site?
- g51 8y agoI cannot post to 4chan from NZ at this time. Appears sys.4chan.org is currently not resolvable.
- g51 8y ago4chan currently read only for me in NZ. cannot post to any board, only view. Appears sys.4chan.org is not resolvable.
- doomsday437 8y agoIsn't working for me either however using a vpn lets me on
- jdck1326 8y agoMy ISP banned 4channel.org/lit ... a place for discussing literature and philosophy. Bit dumb.
- fbgdsf 8y agothe left wing plan to destroy the world with their hypocrisy
- Dubzac58 8y agothis is all bullshit Your shutting down rightwing websites and free speech the phase hate speech" is nothing more than an essuse to take away NZ freedoms and religious rights in Orwellian attack on right wing voters and attack on freedom of association and discrimory laws both of which are illegal in NZ. leftwingers are currently the only ones with free speech so what you are doing is outright illegal no matter the jusifcation