7 ms·

This kind of article is inspiring, but also makes me depressed at what a shit parent I must be and all the various ways I'm screwing up with my kids head, despi

This kind of article is inspiring, but also makes me depressed at what a shit parent I must be and all the various ways I'm screwing up with my kids head, despite trying my best, out of my own imperfections and ignorance. Scary.

m_mueller 8y ago
I have a 3yo myself and I think it's all a trade-off, there's no such thing as perfect parenting. Old cultures tend to land in a local optimum. That being said I'd consciously not move to an average US town as I think there's too much fear spread, it doesn't fit my own culture of giving children space/responsibility as early as possible. Depending on community reaction that can be impossible - not just in many parts of the US but also in Southern Europe for example. There tends to be much more support from the wider family there however. Another local optimum I've seen in Japan where almost everyone is incredibly well behaved but almost no-one learns to think outside the box. Eh. I say choose what you think works and try to choose a community supporting it, within the options you have.
- wil421 8y ago
  Can you elaborate on the US fear spreading and not giving children space?
  - okal 8y ago
    I suspect it's the fact that "free-range parenting" is "a thing" rather than the default.
    - Steltek 8y ago
      While there's some psychology (parental fear of abduction by strangers), there are also significant environmental problems at play in the US that don't exist elsewhere: 1. Kids are more spread out. A suburban neighborhood is huge and fewer people are having kids. The people that have kids will have fewer of them. For kids to coagulate together for playtime, you need higher density. 2. American roads are fucking deadly. Bigger cars at faster speeds with ever less attentive drivers. Cars are by far the number one killer of children and American voters do fuck all to fix it. If we banned all cars, I'd probably let my 2 year old mostly wander around by himself until dinner. 3. Dual working parents plus shitty workplace policies mean there are just fewer eyes out there. Even in the old days, "Free Range" didn't mean Lord of the Flies. It meant the kids roamed around but there was always an adult nearby, even if not in any official capacity. A combination of 1, 2, and 3 makes for American parents structuring a kids' life around schleping them to various scheduled events and places. Even when a kid gets older, they've never developed the habits to do it for themselves.
      - m_mueller 8y ago
        Let me be clear - I'm not blaming American parents at all for this - as you point out it's a result of culture (although I'd say it worked 30y ago as well and you also had cars there). The thing is just if I can choose (and I can), I'd not move there with children.
  - JustSomeNobody 8y ago
    Well, there's the fact that laws like this actually have to be created: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-free-range-parenting-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-f...
    - m_mueller 8y ago
      That's exactly it. Other examples are parents depending on state get fined/threatened to loose their children when doing things like letting them walk across a park accompanied by a 10yo sibling. Just to give an idea where I'm from: * in my home country (one of the highest GDP/capita, so we're not talking poor&rural), children are walking alone or in unaccompanied groups to kindergarden at age 5-6. if parents try and drive them they're often scolded by school authorities, they're supposed to handle it by themselves. * in Japan (just another example that I know well), children walk to school at age 5-6, accompanied by a 1-3 year older sempai that explicitely takes over the responsibility for younger colleagues. There's also people taking the responsibility for a given street corner at a defined time in the morning, watching out for the youngins a bit (but it's not necessarily their own). Again, people who drive their own are typically scolded by society. * after school, children in both countries typically go do other activities on their own, like go to football club or in case of Japan do some school club activity. Curfew time is typically before dark or around 5-6pm. * from time to time there tends to be an accident or case of violence/murder against children that might have been avoided without this culture of letting them run. people are outraged against the person who did it, but culture of self responsibility is not questioned and life goes on. risk is typically 1/1 million or lower (relatively safe drivers, low levels of violence).
      - wil421 8y ago
        It sounds like it’s more about urban vs suburban and rurual areas. I walked to school for 3 years because the school was close. I’m certain other kids in the suburbs don’t have a bus as an option if they live in a certain range. The school closest to my house is over 3 miles away and some parts do not have a sidewalk. When I lived near public transport I saw plenty of kids riding to private schools. Now that I’m in the suburbs it’s not possible. No one is scared to let their children out because of violence or murder. That’s silly news media fear mongering unless you live in a bad area. How close is the kindergarten to your house?
  - giardini 8y ago
    I think (s)/he's talking about the severe restrictions on movement that US kids are subjected to nowadays, stirred by unsupported fears of pedophiles, child-killers, and in general, the idea that there is a malevolent man with an axe hiding behind every tree in the forest. Contrast my experience nearly 60 years ago in a small US town of ~35,000: Once I had a bicycle I had almost complete freedom of movement. My buddy and I would cycle everywhere we could within about a 20-mile radius, out into the countryside, to the rivers and into the downtown urban area on our own. We also had large forests nearby and would wander afoot into those forests and stay out for half a day with no worry by us or our parents. To get to certain woods, we might have to cross private property and go through wooden fences that some owners had erected, but there was almost always a loose piece of fence "left unrepaired" to pass through (if not, then we climbed over the top). We were good Boy Scouts and always left things as good or better than we found them, and no one ever stopped us or threatened us. Except other kids! In forests other groups of children sometimes might view us as hostile, perhaps to protect a "fort" (essentially a foxhole and a dirt pile) they had built out in the woods or who felt this was "their territory", and who might rain down clods of dirt upon us with little warning. We would parlay around it and if that didn't work, we were both pretty accurate with dirt clods ourselves and learned to keep moving so as to be difficult targets. Today I get the impression most US-raised children are restricted to the house, the back yard (even the front yard is too dangerous) and adult-accompanied trips. So sad.
  - astura 8y ago
    A woman was arrested for letting her nine year old play in a public park alone. Kids nowadays wait for the school bus with their parents, usually in their parents cars.
- gowld 8y ago
  Japan went from WWII decimation to an economic powerhouse, led the video game industry, invented the best cars in some major categories, all in a small island country. I'd say they do a decent job of "thinking outside the box". What's "locally" and not globally optimal about working together as a group vs everyone going their own way? The answer isn't obvious, and ultimately it's probably impossible to compare; we can't run A/B tests on planets.
  - m_mueller 8y ago
    I think the key might be two things 1. almost everyone doesn't think outside the box -> if just a couple of people do it, there can be big breakthroughs once the group has been convinced, because then suddenly everyone pulls on the same string. 2. post WW2 Japan was a different beast from what it is now. I generally find there's quite a generational difference between people growing up after the war and 20-somethings now. not unlike the US, but for different reasons and more intense, they had to rebuild a whole country.
blowski 8y ago
For me, screwing up, admitting it and saying sorry is one of the best things you can do for your kids. Teaches them they don’t have to be perfect.
- zikzak 8y ago
  I go out of my way to tell my child when I don't know something or was wrong. Then I go out of my way to show them how I learn that fact or right the wrong, if I can. They learn very quickly and deeply by following your example.
  - Steltek 8y ago
    This lead to a whole year of every car ride starting with, "Daddy, are you sure you know where you're going?". Kids also have a way of reminding you of every failure you ever made and never letting you live it down.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      "here's the map, check for yourself"
    - cladari 8y ago
      My youngest of 3 is now 32 years old. I've recently been thinking about the oft heard "I'm always amazed by the things my grown children remember and the things they don't". I've been trying to discover why they remember things I've forgotten, why that moment was so important to their young lives. We've started to talk about it, trying to find the base so they can use the lesson in their own child rearing.
    - jcdreads 8y ago
      My response to this question or to "Are we there yet?" has always been, "Yep, we've arrived! Hop out!" Best delivered while the car is still at speed for maximum frustration. (Also best when the mood is already light.)
    - gowld 8y ago
dvhh 8y ago
Parenting is also dependent on the environment and your culture (you as both parents). Western city culture tend to breed impatience, which helps a lot with being punctual, but screw up a lot with how we interact with people (including our kids). I tend to think that as long as I can say to my kid that I am honestly proud of them, I know me and my partner haven't screwed up.
- noneeeed 8y ago
  The bit about punctuality is really important. My eldest is 4.5yo, he only has a rough idea of time, and is only just understanding the idea of needing to be somewhere at a set time. So me getting frustrated with him because he's dawdling, isn't helping anyone and just brews up a conflict that he doesn't really understand. You literally end up arguing with someone who doens't understand why you are annoyed.
jd78 8y ago
There are lots of good child psychology books out there. Pick one up. "Non-violent Communication" helped me a lot. It will simplify the issues. It's not about blaming the kid or blaming yourself, but learning ways to shift focus away from blame/judgement to needs. Small changes in the way you use language help make such mental shifts possible. The positive outcomes make you want to do them more and more. I wish I had learnt this stuff at a younger age though. My wife constantly reminds me that what I learnt from how to deal with my kid, has made me deal with adults way better. So there is that advantage too :)
fps_doug 8y ago
How do you even have the energy and patience to do these things. After a day's work, if my kids hit each other I just couldn't act all calm and put on these kinds of little plays described in the article. Before learning to raise kids I'd have to learn to control myself much better first.
- noneeeed 8y ago
  So I've come to realised a few of things that have made things easier for me. First up, just accepting that I'm not not going to be perfect and there are going to be times when I take the easy way out (like this morning when I just stuck the TV on for them while I got things done). No one is perfect and most kids do fine. Expecting to be perfect is like people who crash out of a diet after one day where they fail to stick to it. Be kind to yourself. Do what you can when you can. Sometimes I will have the time and energy to go all deep and meaningful with my kids, and sometimes it's just a quick "stop hitting your sister or I'm selling your trainset". Secondly, when I do make the most of the good times, it tends to pay off later. It's like taking the hit when we did sleep training with my youngest. It was hard work for a couple of days, but the end result was totally worth it. Same goes for stuff like this, sometimes you just get a breakthrough when the kid "gets it" and from then on they are just a little easier. Finally, sometimes I'm going to be grumpy, stressed or tired (probably at the same time), and I'm going to snap, or lose my temper a bit from time to time, like most normal people. But I then make a point of saying "I'm sorry I didn't mean to snap at you, I'm just very tired/stressed". I've found my 4yo is pretty receptive to that, he gets it. It's good for kids to see you owning up to your own mistakes and understanding why. Recognising you've done something wrong, owning it, and apologising is a really important skill for kids. So much of the crap in the world is caused by people just not being prepared to accept when they are wrong and owning their mistakes and failures, but doubling down and digging in. In short, don't take all these "perfect partent" stories too much to heart, most of them make them seem more straight-forward and perfect than they really are (and there is a smell of "look at the mystical native" about a lot of them that I think clouds the narative). But there are often good things to learn from them. Every kid is different so having a wider set of ideas to try is always great.
  - 8y ago
oarsinsync 8y ago
The joy of parenting is that we get to learn from the mistakes our parents made with us, while dreaming up ingenious new ways to screw our own kids up. The key is just to try and do the best you can. Try not to worry too much about what other people are doing. Your parents were likely just as imperfect and ignorant as you are, albeit in their own ways. If they were able to get you to a point where you've got these kinds of concerns doing it yourself, you've probably turned out ok, and your kids will too.
- swish_bob 8y ago
  As Larkin put it (although I disagree with his conclusion): They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself.
  - silasdavis 8y ago
    I'm not sure he did either really
mattdeboard 8y ago
If it actually bothers you, all the ways you're programming your child without knowing it, check out a book called "I Don't Want To Talk About It: Overcoming The Legacy of Male Depression" by Terry Real.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

m_mueller 8y ago

I have a 3yo myself and I think it's all a trade-off, there's no such thing as perfect parenting. Old cultures tend to land in a local optimum. That being said I'd consciously not move to an average US town as I think there's too much fear spread, it doesn't fit my own culture of giving children space/responsibility as early as possible. Depending on community reaction that can be impossible - not just in many parts of the US but also in Southern Europe for example. There tends to be much more support from the wider family there however. Another local optimum I've seen in Japan where almost everyone is incredibly well behaved but almost no-one learns to think outside the box. Eh. I say choose what you think works and try to choose a community supporting it, within the options you have.

wil421 8y ago
Can you elaborate on the US fear spreading and not giving children space?
- okal 8y ago
  I suspect it's the fact that "free-range parenting" is "a thing" rather than the default.
  - Steltek 8y ago
    While there's some psychology (parental fear of abduction by strangers), there are also significant environmental problems at play in the US that don't exist elsewhere: 1. Kids are more spread out. A suburban neighborhood is huge and fewer people are having kids. The people that have kids will have fewer of them. For kids to coagulate together for playtime, you need higher density. 2. American roads are fucking deadly. Bigger cars at faster speeds with ever less attentive drivers. Cars are by far the number one killer of children and American voters do fuck all to fix it. If we banned all cars, I'd probably let my 2 year old mostly wander around by himself until dinner. 3. Dual working parents plus shitty workplace policies mean there are just fewer eyes out there. Even in the old days, "Free Range" didn't mean Lord of the Flies. It meant the kids roamed around but there was always an adult nearby, even if not in any official capacity. A combination of 1, 2, and 3 makes for American parents structuring a kids' life around schleping them to various scheduled events and places. Even when a kid gets older, they've never developed the habits to do it for themselves.
    - m_mueller 8y ago
      Let me be clear - I'm not blaming American parents at all for this - as you point out it's a result of culture (although I'd say it worked 30y ago as well and you also had cars there). The thing is just if I can choose (and I can), I'd not move there with children.
- JustSomeNobody 8y ago
  Well, there's the fact that laws like this actually have to be created: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-free-range-parenting-law.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/well/family/utah-passes-f...
  - m_mueller 8y ago
    That's exactly it. Other examples are parents depending on state get fined/threatened to loose their children when doing things like letting them walk across a park accompanied by a 10yo sibling. Just to give an idea where I'm from: * in my home country (one of the highest GDP/capita, so we're not talking poor&rural), children are walking alone or in unaccompanied groups to kindergarden at age 5-6. if parents try and drive them they're often scolded by school authorities, they're supposed to handle it by themselves. * in Japan (just another example that I know well), children walk to school at age 5-6, accompanied by a 1-3 year older sempai that explicitely takes over the responsibility for younger colleagues. There's also people taking the responsibility for a given street corner at a defined time in the morning, watching out for the youngins a bit (but it's not necessarily their own). Again, people who drive their own are typically scolded by society. * after school, children in both countries typically go do other activities on their own, like go to football club or in case of Japan do some school club activity. Curfew time is typically before dark or around 5-6pm. * from time to time there tends to be an accident or case of violence/murder against children that might have been avoided without this culture of letting them run. people are outraged against the person who did it, but culture of self responsibility is not questioned and life goes on. risk is typically 1/1 million or lower (relatively safe drivers, low levels of violence).
    - wil421 8y ago
      It sounds like it’s more about urban vs suburban and rurual areas. I walked to school for 3 years because the school was close. I’m certain other kids in the suburbs don’t have a bus as an option if they live in a certain range. The school closest to my house is over 3 miles away and some parts do not have a sidewalk. When I lived near public transport I saw plenty of kids riding to private schools. Now that I’m in the suburbs it’s not possible. No one is scared to let their children out because of violence or murder. That’s silly news media fear mongering unless you live in a bad area. How close is the kindergarten to your house?
- giardini 8y ago
  I think (s)/he's talking about the severe restrictions on movement that US kids are subjected to nowadays, stirred by unsupported fears of pedophiles, child-killers, and in general, the idea that there is a malevolent man with an axe hiding behind every tree in the forest. Contrast my experience nearly 60 years ago in a small US town of ~35,000: Once I had a bicycle I had almost complete freedom of movement. My buddy and I would cycle everywhere we could within about a 20-mile radius, out into the countryside, to the rivers and into the downtown urban area on our own. We also had large forests nearby and would wander afoot into those forests and stay out for half a day with no worry by us or our parents. To get to certain woods, we might have to cross private property and go through wooden fences that some owners had erected, but there was almost always a loose piece of fence "left unrepaired" to pass through (if not, then we climbed over the top). We were good Boy Scouts and always left things as good or better than we found them, and no one ever stopped us or threatened us. Except other kids! In forests other groups of children sometimes might view us as hostile, perhaps to protect a "fort" (essentially a foxhole and a dirt pile) they had built out in the woods or who felt this was "their territory", and who might rain down clods of dirt upon us with little warning. We would parlay around it and if that didn't work, we were both pretty accurate with dirt clods ourselves and learned to keep moving so as to be difficult targets. Today I get the impression most US-raised children are restricted to the house, the back yard (even the front yard is too dangerous) and adult-accompanied trips. So sad.
- astura 8y ago
  A woman was arrested for letting her nine year old play in a public park alone. Kids nowadays wait for the school bus with their parents, usually in their parents cars.
gowld 8y ago
Japan went from WWII decimation to an economic powerhouse, led the video game industry, invented the best cars in some major categories, all in a small island country. I'd say they do a decent job of "thinking outside the box". What's "locally" and not globally optimal about working together as a group vs everyone going their own way? The answer isn't obvious, and ultimately it's probably impossible to compare; we can't run A/B tests on planets.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  I think the key might be two things 1. almost everyone doesn't think outside the box -> if just a couple of people do it, there can be big breakthroughs once the group has been convinced, because then suddenly everyone pulls on the same string. 2. post WW2 Japan was a different beast from what it is now. I generally find there's quite a generational difference between people growing up after the war and 20-somethings now. not unlike the US, but for different reasons and more intense, they had to rebuild a whole country.

blowski 8y ago

For me, screwing up, admitting it and saying sorry is one of the best things you can do for your kids. Teaches them they don’t have to be perfect.

zikzak 8y ago
I go out of my way to tell my child when I don't know something or was wrong. Then I go out of my way to show them how I learn that fact or right the wrong, if I can. They learn very quickly and deeply by following your example.
- Steltek 8y ago
  This lead to a whole year of every car ride starting with, "Daddy, are you sure you know where you're going?". Kids also have a way of reminding you of every failure you ever made and never letting you live it down.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    "here's the map, check for yourself"
  - cladari 8y ago
    My youngest of 3 is now 32 years old. I've recently been thinking about the oft heard "I'm always amazed by the things my grown children remember and the things they don't". I've been trying to discover why they remember things I've forgotten, why that moment was so important to their young lives. We've started to talk about it, trying to find the base so they can use the lesson in their own child rearing.
  - jcdreads 8y ago
    My response to this question or to "Are we there yet?" has always been, "Yep, we've arrived! Hop out!" Best delivered while the car is still at speed for maximum frustration. (Also best when the mood is already light.)
  - gowld 8y ago

dvhh 8y ago

Parenting is also dependent on the environment and your culture (you as both parents). Western city culture tend to breed impatience, which helps a lot with being punctual, but screw up a lot with how we interact with people (including our kids). I tend to think that as long as I can say to my kid that I am honestly proud of them, I know me and my partner haven't screwed up.

noneeeed 8y ago
The bit about punctuality is really important. My eldest is 4.5yo, he only has a rough idea of time, and is only just understanding the idea of needing to be somewhere at a set time. So me getting frustrated with him because he's dawdling, isn't helping anyone and just brews up a conflict that he doesn't really understand. You literally end up arguing with someone who doens't understand why you are annoyed.

jd78 8y ago

There are lots of good child psychology books out there. Pick one up. "Non-violent Communication" helped me a lot. It will simplify the issues. It's not about blaming the kid or blaming yourself, but learning ways to shift focus away from blame/judgement to needs. Small changes in the way you use language help make such mental shifts possible. The positive outcomes make you want to do them more and more. I wish I had learnt this stuff at a younger age though. My wife constantly reminds me that what I learnt from how to deal with my kid, has made me deal with adults way better. So there is that advantage too :)

fps_doug 8y ago

How do you even have the energy and patience to do these things. After a day's work, if my kids hit each other I just couldn't act all calm and put on these kinds of little plays described in the article. Before learning to raise kids I'd have to learn to control myself much better first.

noneeeed 8y ago
So I've come to realised a few of things that have made things easier for me. First up, just accepting that I'm not not going to be perfect and there are going to be times when I take the easy way out (like this morning when I just stuck the TV on for them while I got things done). No one is perfect and most kids do fine. Expecting to be perfect is like people who crash out of a diet after one day where they fail to stick to it. Be kind to yourself. Do what you can when you can. Sometimes I will have the time and energy to go all deep and meaningful with my kids, and sometimes it's just a quick "stop hitting your sister or I'm selling your trainset". Secondly, when I do make the most of the good times, it tends to pay off later. It's like taking the hit when we did sleep training with my youngest. It was hard work for a couple of days, but the end result was totally worth it. Same goes for stuff like this, sometimes you just get a breakthrough when the kid "gets it" and from then on they are just a little easier. Finally, sometimes I'm going to be grumpy, stressed or tired (probably at the same time), and I'm going to snap, or lose my temper a bit from time to time, like most normal people. But I then make a point of saying "I'm sorry I didn't mean to snap at you, I'm just very tired/stressed". I've found my 4yo is pretty receptive to that, he gets it. It's good for kids to see you owning up to your own mistakes and understanding why. Recognising you've done something wrong, owning it, and apologising is a really important skill for kids. So much of the crap in the world is caused by people just not being prepared to accept when they are wrong and owning their mistakes and failures, but doubling down and digging in. In short, don't take all these "perfect partent" stories too much to heart, most of them make them seem more straight-forward and perfect than they really are (and there is a smell of "look at the mystical native" about a lot of them that I think clouds the narative). But there are often good things to learn from them. Every kid is different so having a wider set of ideas to try is always great.
- 8y ago

oarsinsync 8y ago

The joy of parenting is that we get to learn from the mistakes our parents made with us, while dreaming up ingenious new ways to screw our own kids up. The key is just to try and do the best you can. Try not to worry too much about what other people are doing. Your parents were likely just as imperfect and ignorant as you are, albeit in their own ways. If they were able to get you to a point where you've got these kinds of concerns doing it yourself, you've probably turned out ok, and your kids will too.

swish_bob 8y ago
As Larkin put it (although I disagree with his conclusion): They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself.
- silasdavis 8y ago
  I'm not sure he did either really

mattdeboard 8y ago

If it actually bothers you, all the ways you're programming your child without knowing it, check out a book called "I Don't Want To Talk About It: Overcoming The Legacy of Male Depression" by Terry Real.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]