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I bought Metro Exodus on Epic Games recently. It was my second experience outside of playing Fortnite on PC. I completely understand why people do not want to

I bought Metro Exodus on Epic Games recently. It was my second experience outside of playing Fortnite on PC. I completely understand why people do not want to pay the Steam tax, but the Epic launcher is a scummy experience. Steam is popular and has a loud following because it does not make unethical choices that annoy users. I have no issue installing multiple launchers, either, but I don't want something running on my system that operates in an unethical manor. And it's tiring how common it is for companies to operate in this way, so we, as users, have to scrutinize their behavior heavily. For example: 1) By default, the Epic launcher appears to advertise "free games" via Windows notification (popups). I never deliberately opted in to this. When I first saw the notification, I was certain I had some sort of spyware on my system. It looked like a spammy advertisement you see in free mobile games. I don't believe even EA/ORIGIN has been gutsy enough to try something like this. 2) Epic launcher defaults to starting when Windows starts. I never explicitly opted in to this. I'm sure I "affirmed" this somehow via some kind of user agreement, but I don't ever remember seeing an explicit option.

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DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
> When I first saw the notification, I was certain I had some sort of spyware on my system. Apparently you were correct, based on this story.
gruez 8y ago
>1) By default, the Epic launcher appears to advertise "free games" via Windows notification (popups). I never deliberately opted in to this. How's that any different than steam showing popups for newly released games on startup? >When I first saw the notification, I was certain I had some sort of spyware on my system. It looked like a spammy advertisement you see in free mobile games. I don't believe even EA/ORIGIN has been gutsy enough to try something like this. So you're upset that the notification made you think your computer was infected? And you expect that epic games to have forseen this outcome? >2) Epic launcher defaults to starting when Windows starts. I never explicitly opted in to this. I'm sure I "affirmed" this somehow via some kind of user agreement, but I don't ever remember seeing an explicit option. AFAIK steam does the same. edit: Here are the default settings for a fresh steam install: https://i.imgur.com/2SNpi1O.png https://i.imgur.com/2SNpi1O.png. As you can see, steam engages in the same "unethical" behavior as epic.
- elefanten 8y ago
  gp is referring to a Windows system notification, it appears in the bottom right. They don't look like the Epic client. The notification related setting in your screenshot causes the pop-up window upon launching Steam. But it's a window that belongs to the Steam client. It has the obvious interface styling of Steam and is titled "Steam - News". I agree with you that the "launch on startup" option would be better as opt-in. I agree with gp that Windows notifications are a step worse. edit- changed description of pop-up
  - gruez 8y ago
    >I agree with gp that Windows notifications are a step worse. Let me get this straight: you think that showing a medium sized banner ad in a window is better than a few lines of text using the OS provided notification API? Why? If the position was reversed, I could very well imagine the opposite argument. eg. "boo epic shows this massive ad in your face, whereas steam uses a discreet notification"
    - judge2020 8y ago
      It's the same reason that nobody likes advertisements in their push notifications on their phone: it takes your attention away from the currently active program/app you're using. Steam's huge box shows up only when you intend to open steam, while Epic's Windows notification might as well pop up while you're doing your taxes.
    - JauntyHatAngle 8y ago
      Not who you were replying to, but I agree with him. Notifications - whether they were intended to or not, are way more intrusive in my usual workflow, and I would posit the majority of people find it the same. This is down to the fact that the steam popups advertising games are in the same icon and styling as the rest of steam -> i.e. You alt+tab or click on your steam icon and close or view it as clearly a steam thing. It also pops up during first start only. A windows notification I find to be much more attention grabbing and not clearly defined as a particular program, and if I find it to be an ad, I'm immediately put out by this as I'm being advertised to by a program in my system tray, where I'm used to that being configuration info and/or notification of something minimising/complete etc. Any information they give me through the notification tab is now in jeopardy of being ignored because I've been taught that they are ads now. This isn't unique to steam for me, I'm totally used to programs opening up additional windows upon opening, but any programs that advertise through system notifications have long since bothered me.
crummy 8y ago
Do you opt in to notifications on desktop apps normally? I know Steam pops up notifications when my friends play a game for example, and though I disable this I think it was enabled by default.
- eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
  I generally opt out of any kind of thing that is going to popup on my screen unannounced. I think there is a grey area on whether those sorts of notifications you mention should be enabled by default. There is an argument to be made that they should be enabled by default, as it's basically a mechanism to train/educate the user that the feature exists. As long as they can easily opt-out. But I do think it's a very different thing between those and what Epic is doing with advertisements regarding completely unrelated games that they want me to play/buy. It serves me no functional purpose, it only serves Epic, especially because the only reason I have Epic Launcher on my system is because it's the only way to play Metro Exodus right now; it's a means to an end.
- BigJono 8y ago
  I have no problem with Steam's notifications since they appear for a second then piss off. Windows notifications are fucking awful. They stay in your tray with a taunting (1) symbol until you get rid of them, the collective amount of time I've wasted opening that horrible right menu and clicking away notifications must be staggering.
  - djfdat 8y ago
    But one is using the system standard format for notifications, and the other one is custom. If you have a problem with how standardized system notifications are handled, that isn't really Epic's fault. Although ideally, you could choose whether to use their's or the systems and customize the available settings for each.
learc83 8y ago
>Steam is popular and has a loud following because it does not make unethical choices that annoy users. I don't think that's true. I think Steam is popular because they were in the right place at the right time. Before Steam, the alternative for most games was driving to the store--that's who they were competing with. Steam has done many things to annoy users--they allow their store to be filled with absolute garbage shovelware for one. They still thrive because of momentum. The games are there because the user base is there, the user base is there because the games are there.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  It's partly first-mover advantage, but also Valve has repeatedly made moves that demonstrate their relative good will towards gamers and developers. Aside from their own (vanishingly few) games, Valve has never enforced any kind of exclusivity. You can even sell Steam keys through other vendors and Valve doesn't even get a cut. They helped launch the indie explosion in the mid oughties with their cross promotional stunts. They have so many sales, with such outrageous discounts, that many of their customers have dozens if not hundreds of games they unlikely to ever play. Said discounts set a new bar for what a sale even looks like, with '40% off' often eliciting general consensus of 'meh'. They have more tools to try and help users find games they might like than anyone. They worked with HTC to develop new VR tech, again with no exclusivity (unlike their competition). And as every Linux gamer here should recognize: they've done more to make Linux gaming a realistic option than anyone ever, and they never charged a dime for it. As much flak as Valve gets for not curating games and letting games with questionable content slide until some internets make a fuss, Steam is actually, objectively, really great.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >Valve has never enforced any kind of exclusivity Because they have no need to. Why deal with the backlash when they own the market? >They have so many sales, with such outrageous discounts How does this demonstrate goodwill towards anyone? The developers are the ones lowering the prices for those sales. And pushing down the price of games to app store level prices isn’t something we should be celebrating. There's a very good argument that encouraging deep discounts hurts the industry in the long run. >They have more tools to try and help users find games they might like than anyone. What do you mean “than anyone”. Versus itch.io and the brand new Epic store? That’s not really a high bar. They could have 1 tool and that would literally be more than anyone. >And as every Linux gamer here should recognize: they've done more to make Linux gaming a realistic option than anyone ever, and they never charged a dime for it. They never charged a dime for it because they were trying to expand their hold over the market. This is like praising Google giving away Android. Their interest in Steam is because they were worried Microsoft was going to use the Windows store to force them off of Windows. > Steam is actually, objectively, really great You definitely can’t say it’s objectively great because it could be a lot worse. A single player dominating the market is almost never great for anyone.
ocdtrekkie 8y ago
When they're giving aweay award-winning games that are currently selling for $20 on Steam, is it really bad that they're letting you know?
- daxterspeed 8y ago
  This argument is nonsense. Perhaps they should robocall me to tell me as well? If I want to be notified about anything (except emergencies) I should have to explicitly opt into it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  How can you complain about all these AMAZING DEALS we're offering?
tomc1985 8y ago
1) By default, the Epic launcher appears to advertise "free games" via Windows notification (popups). I never deliberately opted in to this. When I first saw the notification, I was certain I had some sort of spyware on my system. It looked like a spammy advertisement you see in free mobile games. I don't believe even EA/ORIGIN has been gutsy enough to try something like this. Funny, for years Steam did this too. In fact it's only recently that I can't recall seeing one of their announce popups
- nodja 8y ago
  I don't recall steam ever doing this. And I've used it since the HL2 days. Are you confusing it with the popup that shows on steam startup?
  - djfdat 8y ago
    What popup are you referring to? If it's the login popup, that is Steam starting up at Windows startup...
    - ntnn 8y ago
      He means the huge window that opens after starting steam and logging in. The window usually has multiple pages with current deals.
  - tomc1985 8y ago
    I'm referring to the deals popup that appears in the center of the screen announcing sales. Back in the day its appearance pissed me the hell off
  - gsich 8y ago
    It's this: https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/28415/is-there-a-way-to-turn-off-the-ad-popup-that-appears-when-you-close-a-steam-game https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/28415/is-there-a-... And it was/is default on.
- deleted 8y ago
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shhehebehdh 8y ago
Neither of these items are unethical. They are just design decisions that you don’t like.
LoSboccacc 8y ago
note also that the steam tax is mainly fud steam doesn't take a cut from keys you sell on your homepage or third party stores
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  And, importantly, their cut is completely in line with pretty much every distribution channel's cut. Notably not itch.io and now Epic.
  - mthoms 8y ago
    What is Steam's typical cut?
    - LoSboccacc 8y ago
      30%-20% if the sale is t trough the steam client, 0% otherwise https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/12/01/steam-taking-smaller-sales-cut-from-bigger-games/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/1...
fnrslvr 8y ago
> Steam is popular and has a loud following because it does not make unethical choices that annoy users. Not true. Valve fought (and lost) a drawn-out legal battle against the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission over the rights of consumers using Steam, including right to refunds: https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/full-federal-court-confirms-that-valve-misled-gamers https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/full-federal-court-con... The outcome of this case paved the way for Steam's current refund policy.
krige 8y ago
>I completely understand why people do not want to pay the Steam tax According to anonymous developer comments, Epic Tax is higher than Epic advertises due to extra "associate" (or "influencer") packages that add extra 5% to 20% on top of the 12%.[1] [1] https://archive.fo/7Xtvt https://archive.fo/7Xtvt
buttslasher69 8y ago
>Steam is popular and has a loud following because it does not make unethical choices that annoy users VAC now reads all the domains you have visited and sends it back to their servers hashed -Goes through all your DNS Cache entries (ipconfig /displaydns) -Hashes each one with md5 -Reports back to VAC Servers -So the domain reddit.com would be 1fd7de7da0fce4963f775a5fdb894db5 or organner.pl would be 107cad71e7442611aa633818de5f2930 (Although this might not be fully correct because it seems to be doing something to characters between A-Z, possible making them lowercase) -Hashing with md5 is not full proof, they can be reversed easily nowadays using rainbowtables. So they are relying on a weak hashing function. You dont have to visit the site, any query to the site (an image, a redirect link, a file on the server) will be added to the dns cache. And only the domain will be in your cache, no full urls. Entries in the cache remains till they expire or at most 1 day (might not be 100% accurate), but they dont last forever. We don't know how long this information is kept on their servers, maybe forever, maybe a few days. It's probably done everytime you join a vac server. It seems they are moving from detecting the cheats themselves to computer forensics. All game launchers will fuck your shit up except for maybe gog.
doctorRetro 8y ago
Clarification. What is the steam tax you speak of? I understand when people use the term 'Apple tax' (for example), they're referring to a premium price on a premium product and the follow up premier prices that come with it. But as far as Steam's prices go - assuming the term is used in relation to the price of the products - I don't see any particular inflation over the price of games in a brick and mortar store. In fact, even comparing Steam prices to GOG or the Humble store, I don't think I've ever encountered any discrepancy in prices that points to a "steam tax".
- fredophile 8y ago
  I believe they are referring to the amount that the store takes out of each sale from developers and publishers, not what consumers pay.
  - doctorRetro 8y ago
    Perhaps, but the comment is written from the consumer's perspective. Thank you for the insight, though.

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DoofusOfDeath 8y ago

> When I first saw the notification, I was certain I had some sort of spyware on my system. Apparently you were correct, based on this story.

gruez 8y ago

>1) By default, the Epic launcher appears to advertise "free games" via Windows notification (popups). I never deliberately opted in to this. How's that any different than steam showing popups for newly released games on startup? >When I first saw the notification, I was certain I had some sort of spyware on my system. It looked like a spammy advertisement you see in free mobile games. I don't believe even EA/ORIGIN has been gutsy enough to try something like this. So you're upset that the notification made you think your computer was infected? And you expect that epic games to have forseen this outcome? >2) Epic launcher defaults to starting when Windows starts. I never explicitly opted in to this. I'm sure I "affirmed" this somehow via some kind of user agreement, but I don't ever remember seeing an explicit option. AFAIK steam does the same. edit: Here are the default settings for a fresh steam install: https://i.imgur.com/2SNpi1O.png https://i.imgur.com/2SNpi1O.png. As you can see, steam engages in the same "unethical" behavior as epic.

elefanten 8y ago
gp is referring to a Windows system notification, it appears in the bottom right. They don't look like the Epic client. The notification related setting in your screenshot causes the pop-up window upon launching Steam. But it's a window that belongs to the Steam client. It has the obvious interface styling of Steam and is titled "Steam - News". I agree with you that the "launch on startup" option would be better as opt-in. I agree with gp that Windows notifications are a step worse. edit- changed description of pop-up
- gruez 8y ago
  >I agree with gp that Windows notifications are a step worse. Let me get this straight: you think that showing a medium sized banner ad in a window is better than a few lines of text using the OS provided notification API? Why? If the position was reversed, I could very well imagine the opposite argument. eg. "boo epic shows this massive ad in your face, whereas steam uses a discreet notification"
  - judge2020 8y ago
    It's the same reason that nobody likes advertisements in their push notifications on their phone: it takes your attention away from the currently active program/app you're using. Steam's huge box shows up only when you intend to open steam, while Epic's Windows notification might as well pop up while you're doing your taxes.
  - JauntyHatAngle 8y ago
    Not who you were replying to, but I agree with him. Notifications - whether they were intended to or not, are way more intrusive in my usual workflow, and I would posit the majority of people find it the same. This is down to the fact that the steam popups advertising games are in the same icon and styling as the rest of steam -> i.e. You alt+tab or click on your steam icon and close or view it as clearly a steam thing. It also pops up during first start only. A windows notification I find to be much more attention grabbing and not clearly defined as a particular program, and if I find it to be an ad, I'm immediately put out by this as I'm being advertised to by a program in my system tray, where I'm used to that being configuration info and/or notification of something minimising/complete etc. Any information they give me through the notification tab is now in jeopardy of being ignored because I've been taught that they are ads now. This isn't unique to steam for me, I'm totally used to programs opening up additional windows upon opening, but any programs that advertise through system notifications have long since bothered me.

crummy 8y ago

Do you opt in to notifications on desktop apps normally? I know Steam pops up notifications when my friends play a game for example, and though I disable this I think it was enabled by default.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
I generally opt out of any kind of thing that is going to popup on my screen unannounced. I think there is a grey area on whether those sorts of notifications you mention should be enabled by default. There is an argument to be made that they should be enabled by default, as it's basically a mechanism to train/educate the user that the feature exists. As long as they can easily opt-out. But I do think it's a very different thing between those and what Epic is doing with advertisements regarding completely unrelated games that they want me to play/buy. It serves me no functional purpose, it only serves Epic, especially because the only reason I have Epic Launcher on my system is because it's the only way to play Metro Exodus right now; it's a means to an end.
BigJono 8y ago
I have no problem with Steam's notifications since they appear for a second then piss off. Windows notifications are fucking awful. They stay in your tray with a taunting (1) symbol until you get rid of them, the collective amount of time I've wasted opening that horrible right menu and clicking away notifications must be staggering.
- djfdat 8y ago
  But one is using the system standard format for notifications, and the other one is custom. If you have a problem with how standardized system notifications are handled, that isn't really Epic's fault. Although ideally, you could choose whether to use their's or the systems and customize the available settings for each.

learc83 8y ago

>Steam is popular and has a loud following because it does not make unethical choices that annoy users. I don't think that's true. I think Steam is popular because they were in the right place at the right time. Before Steam, the alternative for most games was driving to the store--that's who they were competing with. Steam has done many things to annoy users--they allow their store to be filled with absolute garbage shovelware for one. They still thrive because of momentum. The games are there because the user base is there, the user base is there because the games are there.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
It's partly first-mover advantage, but also Valve has repeatedly made moves that demonstrate their relative good will towards gamers and developers. Aside from their own (vanishingly few) games, Valve has never enforced any kind of exclusivity. You can even sell Steam keys through other vendors and Valve doesn't even get a cut. They helped launch the indie explosion in the mid oughties with their cross promotional stunts. They have so many sales, with such outrageous discounts, that many of their customers have dozens if not hundreds of games they unlikely to ever play. Said discounts set a new bar for what a sale even looks like, with '40% off' often eliciting general consensus of 'meh'. They have more tools to try and help users find games they might like than anyone. They worked with HTC to develop new VR tech, again with no exclusivity (unlike their competition). And as every Linux gamer here should recognize: they've done more to make Linux gaming a realistic option than anyone ever, and they never charged a dime for it. As much flak as Valve gets for not curating games and letting games with questionable content slide until some internets make a fuss, Steam is actually, objectively, really great.
- learc83 8y ago
  >Valve has never enforced any kind of exclusivity Because they have no need to. Why deal with the backlash when they own the market? >They have so many sales, with such outrageous discounts How does this demonstrate goodwill towards anyone? The developers are the ones lowering the prices for those sales. And pushing down the price of games to app store level prices isn’t something we should be celebrating. There's a very good argument that encouraging deep discounts hurts the industry in the long run. >They have more tools to try and help users find games they might like than anyone. What do you mean “than anyone”. Versus itch.io and the brand new Epic store? That’s not really a high bar. They could have 1 tool and that would literally be more than anyone. >And as every Linux gamer here should recognize: they've done more to make Linux gaming a realistic option than anyone ever, and they never charged a dime for it. They never charged a dime for it because they were trying to expand their hold over the market. This is like praising Google giving away Android. Their interest in Steam is because they were worried Microsoft was going to use the Windows store to force them off of Windows. > Steam is actually, objectively, really great You definitely can’t say it’s objectively great because it could be a lot worse. A single player dominating the market is almost never great for anyone.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

When they're giving aweay award-winning games that are currently selling for $20 on Steam, is it really bad that they're letting you know?

daxterspeed 8y ago
This argument is nonsense. Perhaps they should robocall me to tell me as well? If I want to be notified about anything (except emergencies) I should have to explicitly opt into it.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
How can you complain about all these AMAZING DEALS we're offering?

tomc1985 8y ago

1) By default, the Epic launcher appears to advertise "free games" via Windows notification (popups). I never deliberately opted in to this. When I first saw the notification, I was certain I had some sort of spyware on my system. It looked like a spammy advertisement you see in free mobile games. I don't believe even EA/ORIGIN has been gutsy enough to try something like this. Funny, for years Steam did this too. In fact it's only recently that I can't recall seeing one of their announce popups

nodja 8y ago
I don't recall steam ever doing this. And I've used it since the HL2 days. Are you confusing it with the popup that shows on steam startup?
- djfdat 8y ago
  What popup are you referring to? If it's the login popup, that is Steam starting up at Windows startup...
  - ntnn 8y ago
    He means the huge window that opens after starting steam and logging in. The window usually has multiple pages with current deals.
- tomc1985 8y ago
  I'm referring to the deals popup that appears in the center of the screen announcing sales. Back in the day its appearance pissed me the hell off
- gsich 8y ago
  It's this: https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/28415/is-there-a-way-to-turn-off-the-ad-popup-that-appears-when-you-close-a-steam-game https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/28415/is-there-a-... And it was/is default on.
deleted 8y ago
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shhehebehdh 8y ago

Neither of these items are unethical. They are just design decisions that you don’t like.

LoSboccacc 8y ago

note also that the steam tax is mainly fud steam doesn't take a cut from keys you sell on your homepage or third party stores

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
And, importantly, their cut is completely in line with pretty much every distribution channel's cut. Notably not itch.io and now Epic.
- mthoms 8y ago
  What is Steam's typical cut?
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    30%-20% if the sale is t trough the steam client, 0% otherwise https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/12/01/steam-taking-smaller-sales-cut-from-bigger-games/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/1...

fnrslvr 8y ago

> Steam is popular and has a loud following because it does not make unethical choices that annoy users. Not true. Valve fought (and lost) a drawn-out legal battle against the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission over the rights of consumers using Steam, including right to refunds: https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/full-federal-court-confirms-that-valve-misled-gamers https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/full-federal-court-con... The outcome of this case paved the way for Steam's current refund policy.

krige 8y ago

>I completely understand why people do not want to pay the Steam tax According to anonymous developer comments, Epic Tax is higher than Epic advertises due to extra "associate" (or "influencer") packages that add extra 5% to 20% on top of the 12%.[1] [1] https://archive.fo/7Xtvt https://archive.fo/7Xtvt

buttslasher69 8y ago

>Steam is popular and has a loud following because it does not make unethical choices that annoy users VAC now reads all the domains you have visited and sends it back to their servers hashed -Goes through all your DNS Cache entries (ipconfig /displaydns) -Hashes each one with md5 -Reports back to VAC Servers -So the domain reddit.com would be 1fd7de7da0fce4963f775a5fdb894db5 or organner.pl would be 107cad71e7442611aa633818de5f2930 (Although this might not be fully correct because it seems to be doing something to characters between A-Z, possible making them lowercase) -Hashing with md5 is not full proof, they can be reversed easily nowadays using rainbowtables. So they are relying on a weak hashing function. You dont have to visit the site, any query to the site (an image, a redirect link, a file on the server) will be added to the dns cache. And only the domain will be in your cache, no full urls. Entries in the cache remains till they expire or at most 1 day (might not be 100% accurate), but they dont last forever. We don't know how long this information is kept on their servers, maybe forever, maybe a few days. It's probably done everytime you join a vac server. It seems they are moving from detecting the cheats themselves to computer forensics. All game launchers will fuck your shit up except for maybe gog.

doctorRetro 8y ago

Clarification. What is the steam tax you speak of? I understand when people use the term 'Apple tax' (for example), they're referring to a premium price on a premium product and the follow up premier prices that come with it. But as far as Steam's prices go - assuming the term is used in relation to the price of the products - I don't see any particular inflation over the price of games in a brick and mortar store. In fact, even comparing Steam prices to GOG or the Humble store, I don't think I've ever encountered any discrepancy in prices that points to a "steam tax".

fredophile 8y ago
I believe they are referring to the amount that the store takes out of each sale from developers and publishers, not what consumers pay.
- doctorRetro 8y ago
  Perhaps, but the comment is written from the consumer's perspective. Thank you for the insight, though.