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The Elusive Byzantine Empire
- girzel 8y agoThat's the second Byzantine-related posting I've seen today. I'll chime in with Ghost Empire by Richard Fidler, which I'm reading because I'm organizing some author events for him in China. Seems very well researched and well written; a popular account rather than a historical deep dive, but lots of fun to read.
- rubayeet 8y agoI would also recommend Season 2 of Tides of History podcast series.
- geowwy 8y ago> To begin at the beginning is tricky. Did the empire begin when the emperor > Constantine moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople in 324? When the > city was consecrated by both pagan and Christian priests in May 330? Or did > it begin in 395 when the two halves of the vast Roman empire were officially > divided into East and West, or even later in the late 5th century when Rome > was sacked, conquered and governed by the Goths, leaving Constantinople and > the East as the sole heir of the empire? It's tricky to define the beginning the Byzantine Empire because the Byzantine Empire is a construct invented by Western historians. The Byzantine Empire is just the Roman Empire.
- hacknat 8y agoI agree with you. They called themselves Romans until the very end, and the claim isn’t dubious as all their institutions and wealth were from an unbroken Roman origin (well as unbroken as anything in pre-324 Roman history itself).
- zeveb 8y ago> They called themselves Romans until the very end And to this day the Turks call the Greeks in Turkey Romans.
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- jcranmer 8y agoYes and no. The Byzantine Empire is a continuation of the Roman Empire, but it is not the continuation of the Roman Empire. Saying that the Byzantine Empire is just the Roman Empire masks the fact that it really is a Ship of Theseus situation: in terms of administration, culture, military practices, etc., there is rather more discontinuity between the Roman Empire of 200 and the Byzantine Empire of 800, although the changes were gradual and not sudden. A good comparison is to Chinese history. The Chinese tend to argue that they have a continuous empire stretching back to the Xia dynasty (or the Qin dynasty, depending on how much credence you give to the historicity of Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties), albeit broken up into distinct dynasties. Yet this is similarly not quite so truthful--China was often fragmented into warring polities with no clear hegemon, and there are times when even the Chinese historians couldn't maintain the pretense that there was on (say, the Three Kingdoms period). Western historiography does emphasize the discontinuity rather than the continuity, and it is wrong, but so is emphasizing the continuity and ignoring the discontinuity.
- geowwy 8y agoSure but that's true of just about any state. Assuming the US still exists in 600 years it will look very different than it does today.
- LiquidSky 8y ago>Saying that the Byzantine Empire is just the Roman Empire masks the fact that it really is a Ship of Theseus situation Not at all, it is simply an objectively correct statement. What we call the "Byzantine Empire" is the eastern portion of the Roman Empire that persisted after Rome and the Western portion fell. This isn't a matter of opinion. It was a continuous political entity. The Chinese example is not comparable and, as you note, simply dishonest. While you could try to argue about cultural continuity, politically China experienced a series of polities rising, collapsing, and being conquered by foreign invaders. >Western historiography does emphasize the discontinuity rather than the continuity, and it is wrong, but so is emphasizing the continuity and ignoring the discontinuity. There is no discontinuity. Changes in language, culture, etc. don't change the fact that it was the continuing portion of the Roman Empire. If the United States exists in 500 years, whatever its makeup or territory, it will still be the United States if the political entity did not end.
- kasey_junk 8y agoIf the language, architecture, religion, sphere of influence, culture & laws were all completely different why wouldn’t you distinguish it? We distinguish between the Roman Republic vs Roman Empire and in lots of ways they had much more in common than the Byzantine.
- oblio 8y agoRome had Greek as an official language even back during the "real" Roman Empire. Architecture evolves. Religion? I'm not sure I get the point, they were Christian, some would say, they were the actual "real" Christians :) Sphere of influence? Can you even quantify that? Culture, see language above. Laws? They had Roman laws + laws added during the normal evolution of a state. More than that, the Justinian code was also adopted by Western countries...
- pesmhey 8y agoEven the distinction between republic and empire may be incorrect. They called themselves res publica the entire time. I mean, if they’re considering themselves Roman Republicans, how much can we look back and contradict them?
- kasey_junk 8y agoWould the Romans who cut their hands off rather than submit to a king, who viewed the Greeks as indolent & corrupted, look at the Byzantines and think “those are Romans?” We of course can’t know but it shows that what the last of the Byzantine’s called themselves is not necessarily the end of the discussion.
- pesmhey 8y ago>We of course can’t know but it shows that what the last of the Byzantine’s called themselves is not necessarily the end of the discussion. Agreed. Always an interesting discussion.
- lmm 8y ago> We distinguish between the Roman Republic vs Roman Empire Not to a great extent. People doing detailed historical work on the relevant era would, sure, but general popular history probably wouldn't.
- tpm 8y agoBut then what is the Holy Roman Empire?
- oblio 8y agoAn artificial construct which had nothing to do with the actual Roman Empire. I'd quote Voltaire but that quote is so tired now, I'll just let it rest.
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- woodandsteel 8y agoI strongly disagree. The proper meaning of words is established by usage, and it often changes over time. Historians have long used the term Byzantine Empire to refer to the Eastern Roman Empire, and this usage confuses no one who has any familiarity with the history. The only alternative theory of proper linguistic meaning is that it is based on perfect, permanent, non-material essences, as in Platonism.
- khrbrt 8y agoFor those interested, the excellent History of Byzantium podcast[0] is covering the entire history of the empire, from the fall of the western empire, up to the sack of Constantinople. It gets pretty in-depth, with each episode covering a distinct event or topic, and stops every century to give a survey of what's going beyond the empire's borders and broad changes in the lives of its people and their culture. 0: https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/ https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/
- Dylanfm 8y agoI really enjoyed the 12 Byzantine Rulers podcast too, along with the accompanying book Lost To The West https://12byzantinerulers.com https://12byzantinerulers.com
- acjohnson55 8y agoAnd of course, the History of Rome podcast sets the stage for the development of the Byzantine Empire. https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/ https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/ The History of Byzantium was initially intended to be a continuation of that podcast. I also recommend the Fall of Rome podcast: https://wondery.com/shows/the-fall-of-rome-podcast/ https://wondery.com/shows/the-fall-of-rome-podcast/ All of the above have utterly changed my perspective on world history.
- acjohnson55 8y agoThe rise of the caliphate at the expense of the Romans (and Persians) seems a lot less shocking after listening to the History of Byzantium. The Romans thought the deserts were a natural southern border. But they became a giant highway in the face of unifying desert tribes. It's quite similar to how the Vikings inverted the strategic safety of the sea and rivers in the north.
- gumby 8y ago> ...infamous wife, Theodora What an odd aside. I would hardly call her 'infamous' -- she was influential and charitable!
- woodandsteel 8y agoGreat article, told me a whole lot I didn't know about the Byzantine empire Articles like this are good because most people mistakenly believe that the Roman Empire ended with the fall of Rome, and don't realize the Eastern branch lived on for another thousand years, and with enormous impact.