5 ms·

I think you may be ignoring the drive to eat. Your reductionist view does little to account for how hard it is for people who want to lose weight to do it long-

by ericb 16y ago

I think you may be ignoring the drive to eat. Your reductionist view does little to account for how hard it is for people who want to lose weight to do it long-term. The reductionist view certainly can provide a comfortable feeling of superiority, though. If you think the drive is inconsequential and easy to ignore then try and hold your breath until you pass out. Just breath less, right? These drives have ways of talking us into doing what they want--they are very persuasive.

dejb 16y ago
I just had the thought. Occam's Razor must surely be reductionist right? Anyway I wonder if it will ever be possible to separate 'drive to eat' from 'willpower over that drive'. Other possible human drives and addictions must also be similar - drug addiction, avoiding pain, masturbation and breathing. I think it's fair to say the the whole notion 'free' willpower is certainly philosophically suspect. Perhaps the only sensible meaning of the word is "degree of control over one's drives", where the strength of 'drives' are accepted to vary considerably from person to person. Regardless of whether it is fair that people drives may vary considerably, often that only way to combat them is through equal and opposite levels of willpower.
Evgeny 16y ago
Okay, I have to agree - the fact that I can manipulate my weight at will and either stay at the target weight or adjust it if I want to does give me some feeling of superiority in this particular aspect. And I have learnt a few things on the way - for example, that slight hunger is not a sign that you should rush to the fridge. That a 24 or 36 hours fast will not kill you, but is rather good for you. That if I want to lower my weight, eliminating all refined carbs and added sugars is simple and effective. Yes, if you want to lose weight you may need to put in some effort. There is little way around it, short of liposuction may be. You may have learn to control the "drive to eat" just like you control many other drives. Ideally, of course, one should make proper eating his way of life. Talking about breath, by the way - yes, if I concentrate on my breath, I can consciously make it more deep and breathe less often. It is somewhat similar to what I would do to my meals - eat a bit more, but less often, with no snacks in between 3 meals per day, with suprisingly positive results.
- mtviewdave 16y ago
  Keep in mind that you've learned some important lessons only for yourself. Extrapolations you make to other people--the minutia of how their bodies work, what sort of impulses and urges they have, how easy or difficult those urges are to control--are basically speculative. And judgments based just on speculation aren't really worth very much.
  - Evgeny 16y ago
    Well I hope I understand that. However, widespread obesity is a relatively recent problem. I'm not convinced that human bodies somehow started to work in a very different way over the span of just a few decades. The amount and compisition of what we place inside those bodies did change though. Overcoming the urges and impulses would require a certain amount of effort and self-control, but don't other positive changes in life do? To become stronger would involve regular and fairly intensive exercise. To get that better job may require extra studying and less going out. To save for that vacation may require restricting your spending. My approach would be the same in general: set a reasonable goal, formulate the plan, follow the plan. If something is not working, try to find the reason and adjust your goals or plans.
    - randallsquared 16y ago
      I'm not convinced that human bodies somehow started to work in a very different way over the span of just a few decades. The amount and composition of what we place inside those bodies did change though. Just like in times past, people tend to eat as much as they can, and do as little physical work as they can, in the extreme. It's just that we're all so incredibly wealthy now compared to our ancestors that this is no longer a reasonable strategy for maintaining a healthy weight.
      - Evgeny 16y ago
        It is probably a big part of the story, but maybe not the whole story. There are examples when abundance of food does not lead to widespread obesity, so the particular types of food being eaten must be of importance. Kitavans are not particularly active. They have an activity level comparable to a moderately active Swede, the population to which Dr. Lindeberg draws frequent comparisons. They have abundant food, and shortage is practically unknown. Their good health is probably not related to genetics, since genetically similar groups in the same region are exquisitely sensitive to the ravages of industrial food. Furthermore, the only Kitavan who moved away from the island to live a modern life is also the only fat Kitavan. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/08/kitavans-wisdom-from-pacific-islands.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/08/kitavans-wisdo...

by ericb 16y ago

dejb 16y ago

I just had the thought. Occam's Razor must surely be reductionist right? Anyway I wonder if it will ever be possible to separate 'drive to eat' from 'willpower over that drive'. Other possible human drives and addictions must also be similar - drug addiction, avoiding pain, masturbation and breathing. I think it's fair to say the the whole notion 'free' willpower is certainly philosophically suspect. Perhaps the only sensible meaning of the word is "degree of control over one's drives", where the strength of 'drives' are accepted to vary considerably from person to person. Regardless of whether it is fair that people drives may vary considerably, often that only way to combat them is through equal and opposite levels of willpower.

Evgeny 16y ago

Okay, I have to agree - the fact that I can manipulate my weight at will and either stay at the target weight or adjust it if I want to does give me some feeling of superiority in this particular aspect. And I have learnt a few things on the way - for example, that slight hunger is not a sign that you should rush to the fridge. That a 24 or 36 hours fast will not kill you, but is rather good for you. That if I want to lower my weight, eliminating all refined carbs and added sugars is simple and effective. Yes, if you want to lose weight you may need to put in some effort. There is little way around it, short of liposuction may be. You may have learn to control the "drive to eat" just like you control many other drives. Ideally, of course, one should make proper eating his way of life. Talking about breath, by the way - yes, if I concentrate on my breath, I can consciously make it more deep and breathe less often. It is somewhat similar to what I would do to my meals - eat a bit more, but less often, with no snacks in between 3 meals per day, with suprisingly positive results.

mtviewdave 16y ago
Keep in mind that you've learned some important lessons only for yourself. Extrapolations you make to other people--the minutia of how their bodies work, what sort of impulses and urges they have, how easy or difficult those urges are to control--are basically speculative. And judgments based just on speculation aren't really worth very much.
- Evgeny 16y ago
  Well I hope I understand that. However, widespread obesity is a relatively recent problem. I'm not convinced that human bodies somehow started to work in a very different way over the span of just a few decades. The amount and compisition of what we place inside those bodies did change though. Overcoming the urges and impulses would require a certain amount of effort and self-control, but don't other positive changes in life do? To become stronger would involve regular and fairly intensive exercise. To get that better job may require extra studying and less going out. To save for that vacation may require restricting your spending. My approach would be the same in general: set a reasonable goal, formulate the plan, follow the plan. If something is not working, try to find the reason and adjust your goals or plans.
  - randallsquared 16y ago
    I'm not convinced that human bodies somehow started to work in a very different way over the span of just a few decades. The amount and composition of what we place inside those bodies did change though. Just like in times past, people tend to eat as much as they can, and do as little physical work as they can, in the extreme. It's just that we're all so incredibly wealthy now compared to our ancestors that this is no longer a reasonable strategy for maintaining a healthy weight.
    - Evgeny 16y ago
      It is probably a big part of the story, but maybe not the whole story. There are examples when abundance of food does not lead to widespread obesity, so the particular types of food being eaten must be of importance. Kitavans are not particularly active. They have an activity level comparable to a moderately active Swede, the population to which Dr. Lindeberg draws frequent comparisons. They have abundant food, and shortage is practically unknown. Their good health is probably not related to genetics, since genetically similar groups in the same region are exquisitely sensitive to the ravages of industrial food. Furthermore, the only Kitavan who moved away from the island to live a modern life is also the only fat Kitavan. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/08/kitavans-wisdom-from-pacific-islands.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/08/kitavans-wisdo...