4 ms·

I don't find it surprising at all that the rats that feed on the scraps of human food are getting obese - they get the same trans fats, refined carbs and sugars

by Evgeny 16y ago

I don't find it surprising at all that the rats that feed on the scraps of human food are getting obese - they get the same trans fats, refined carbs and sugars and other stuff that people get. Laboratory animals, again, are fed by humans. Are they fed strictly following the natural diet of fresh food they would eat in the wild? I doubt that - most likely at least some of it is substituted with cheaper option. From my point of view, searching for a malicious virus that somehow makes us obese or some other obscure reason is just overcomplicating the issue. When eating at our canteen at work I can peek into people's plates and the reflection of their choice of food on their size is fairly obvious in most cases. Edit: just heard the sound of munching, which reminded me of an anectode: a colleague of mine quit smoking a couple of months ago. Now it looks like every time he feels like smoking a cig, he's eating a cookie instead. He also recently complained that after having a stable weight for years, he suddenly gained 5 kilos. Hmm, either he got stung by that virus, or too many cookies - pick your choice ...

ericb 16y ago
I think you may be ignoring the drive to eat. Your reductionist view does little to account for how hard it is for people who want to lose weight to do it long-term. The reductionist view certainly can provide a comfortable feeling of superiority, though. If you think the drive is inconsequential and easy to ignore then try and hold your breath until you pass out. Just breath less, right? These drives have ways of talking us into doing what they want--they are very persuasive.
- dejb 16y ago
  I just had the thought. Occam's Razor must surely be reductionist right? Anyway I wonder if it will ever be possible to separate 'drive to eat' from 'willpower over that drive'. Other possible human drives and addictions must also be similar - drug addiction, avoiding pain, masturbation and breathing. I think it's fair to say the the whole notion 'free' willpower is certainly philosophically suspect. Perhaps the only sensible meaning of the word is "degree of control over one's drives", where the strength of 'drives' are accepted to vary considerably from person to person. Regardless of whether it is fair that people drives may vary considerably, often that only way to combat them is through equal and opposite levels of willpower.
- Evgeny 16y ago
  Okay, I have to agree - the fact that I can manipulate my weight at will and either stay at the target weight or adjust it if I want to does give me some feeling of superiority in this particular aspect. And I have learnt a few things on the way - for example, that slight hunger is not a sign that you should rush to the fridge. That a 24 or 36 hours fast will not kill you, but is rather good for you. That if I want to lower my weight, eliminating all refined carbs and added sugars is simple and effective. Yes, if you want to lose weight you may need to put in some effort. There is little way around it, short of liposuction may be. You may have learn to control the "drive to eat" just like you control many other drives. Ideally, of course, one should make proper eating his way of life. Talking about breath, by the way - yes, if I concentrate on my breath, I can consciously make it more deep and breathe less often. It is somewhat similar to what I would do to my meals - eat a bit more, but less often, with no snacks in between 3 meals per day, with suprisingly positive results.
  - mtviewdave 16y ago
    Keep in mind that you've learned some important lessons only for yourself. Extrapolations you make to other people--the minutia of how their bodies work, what sort of impulses and urges they have, how easy or difficult those urges are to control--are basically speculative. And judgments based just on speculation aren't really worth very much.
    - Evgeny 16y ago
      Well I hope I understand that. However, widespread obesity is a relatively recent problem. I'm not convinced that human bodies somehow started to work in a very different way over the span of just a few decades. The amount and compisition of what we place inside those bodies did change though. Overcoming the urges and impulses would require a certain amount of effort and self-control, but don't other positive changes in life do? To become stronger would involve regular and fairly intensive exercise. To get that better job may require extra studying and less going out. To save for that vacation may require restricting your spending. My approach would be the same in general: set a reasonable goal, formulate the plan, follow the plan. If something is not working, try to find the reason and adjust your goals or plans.
zeemonkee 16y ago
> searching for a malicious virus that somehow makes us obese or some other obscure reason is just overcomplicating the issue. Either there is a malicious virus contributing in some way to obesity, or there is not. Let the scientific evidence speak for itself. If that makes the issue more complicated than we'd like, then so be it.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >Either there is a malicious virus contributing in some way to obesity https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Adenovirus_se... I know it's Wikipedia, but the information there suggests that there is a strong relationship [not necessarily causal] between carriers fo the virus and obesity. But, one can still be obese without it and one can be a carrier and not be obese so I don't think this obviates the obese carrier from responsibility even if a direct causal relationship is established.
  - zeemonkee 16y ago
    Of course not. If I smoke, for example, I have a higher chance of getting cancer than if don't smoke; if I eat pizza all the day long instead of salad and don't exercise, I have a higher chance of becoming obese. However I may also never touch a cigarette in my life and still get cancer. I may exercise and eat reasonably well and still be overweight. Some people can smoke 20 a day all their lives and live to a healthy old age; some can eat like pigs and have a size 10 figure. My gut feeling (pardon the pun) is that obesity is mostly caused by the junk that goes into modern food, combined with a more sedentary lifestyle; but that's not to say there aren't a whole lot of other factors - genetics, environment, viral etc - that play a role.
- Evgeny 16y ago
  It is still not black and white, even if there is a contributing virus. What if, for example, the virus increases the chance to become obese by 0.25%? Or 0.025%? How serious should the counter actions be in this case, how much should be spent on searching for cure, compared, for example, with educating people on aspects of proper nutrition and physical exercise?

by Evgeny 16y ago

ericb 16y ago

I think you may be ignoring the drive to eat. Your reductionist view does little to account for how hard it is for people who want to lose weight to do it long-term. The reductionist view certainly can provide a comfortable feeling of superiority, though. If you think the drive is inconsequential and easy to ignore then try and hold your breath until you pass out. Just breath less, right? These drives have ways of talking us into doing what they want--they are very persuasive.

dejb 16y ago
I just had the thought. Occam's Razor must surely be reductionist right? Anyway I wonder if it will ever be possible to separate 'drive to eat' from 'willpower over that drive'. Other possible human drives and addictions must also be similar - drug addiction, avoiding pain, masturbation and breathing. I think it's fair to say the the whole notion 'free' willpower is certainly philosophically suspect. Perhaps the only sensible meaning of the word is "degree of control over one's drives", where the strength of 'drives' are accepted to vary considerably from person to person. Regardless of whether it is fair that people drives may vary considerably, often that only way to combat them is through equal and opposite levels of willpower.
Evgeny 16y ago
Okay, I have to agree - the fact that I can manipulate my weight at will and either stay at the target weight or adjust it if I want to does give me some feeling of superiority in this particular aspect. And I have learnt a few things on the way - for example, that slight hunger is not a sign that you should rush to the fridge. That a 24 or 36 hours fast will not kill you, but is rather good for you. That if I want to lower my weight, eliminating all refined carbs and added sugars is simple and effective. Yes, if you want to lose weight you may need to put in some effort. There is little way around it, short of liposuction may be. You may have learn to control the "drive to eat" just like you control many other drives. Ideally, of course, one should make proper eating his way of life. Talking about breath, by the way - yes, if I concentrate on my breath, I can consciously make it more deep and breathe less often. It is somewhat similar to what I would do to my meals - eat a bit more, but less often, with no snacks in between 3 meals per day, with suprisingly positive results.
- mtviewdave 16y ago
  Keep in mind that you've learned some important lessons only for yourself. Extrapolations you make to other people--the minutia of how their bodies work, what sort of impulses and urges they have, how easy or difficult those urges are to control--are basically speculative. And judgments based just on speculation aren't really worth very much.
  - Evgeny 16y ago
    Well I hope I understand that. However, widespread obesity is a relatively recent problem. I'm not convinced that human bodies somehow started to work in a very different way over the span of just a few decades. The amount and compisition of what we place inside those bodies did change though. Overcoming the urges and impulses would require a certain amount of effort and self-control, but don't other positive changes in life do? To become stronger would involve regular and fairly intensive exercise. To get that better job may require extra studying and less going out. To save for that vacation may require restricting your spending. My approach would be the same in general: set a reasonable goal, formulate the plan, follow the plan. If something is not working, try to find the reason and adjust your goals or plans.

zeemonkee 16y ago

> searching for a malicious virus that somehow makes us obese or some other obscure reason is just overcomplicating the issue. Either there is a malicious virus contributing in some way to obesity, or there is not. Let the scientific evidence speak for itself. If that makes the issue more complicated than we'd like, then so be it.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>Either there is a malicious virus contributing in some way to obesity https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Adenovirus_serotype_36 https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Adenovirus_se... I know it's Wikipedia, but the information there suggests that there is a strong relationship [not necessarily causal] between carriers fo the virus and obesity. But, one can still be obese without it and one can be a carrier and not be obese so I don't think this obviates the obese carrier from responsibility even if a direct causal relationship is established.
- zeemonkee 16y ago
  Of course not. If I smoke, for example, I have a higher chance of getting cancer than if don't smoke; if I eat pizza all the day long instead of salad and don't exercise, I have a higher chance of becoming obese. However I may also never touch a cigarette in my life and still get cancer. I may exercise and eat reasonably well and still be overweight. Some people can smoke 20 a day all their lives and live to a healthy old age; some can eat like pigs and have a size 10 figure. My gut feeling (pardon the pun) is that obesity is mostly caused by the junk that goes into modern food, combined with a more sedentary lifestyle; but that's not to say there aren't a whole lot of other factors - genetics, environment, viral etc - that play a role.
Evgeny 16y ago
It is still not black and white, even if there is a contributing virus. What if, for example, the virus increases the chance to become obese by 0.25%? Or 0.025%? How serious should the counter actions be in this case, how much should be spent on searching for cure, compared, for example, with educating people on aspects of proper nutrition and physical exercise?