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Three points of interest: 1) Full developer announcement on their Patreon page -> https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688 https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688

Three points of interest: 1) Full developer announcement on their Patreon page -> https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688 https://www.patreon.com/posts/25343688 2) They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same procedures . . " 3) Cool to see that they are going to use graphics built by two of the most popular community modders: -=> MayDay built one of the most popular current graphics packs @ http://goblinart.pl/vg-eng/df.php http://goblinart.pl/vg-eng/df.php -=> And Meph has built a fairly massive tile set as well @ http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161047.0 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161047.0 Will be interesting to see how they change with native support.

coldacid 8y ago
Also in the article but buried: 4) Steam/itch.io and Katfox take a cut so if you want to really help out Zach and Tarn you should donate directly @ http://www.bay12games.com/support.html http://www.bay12games.com/support.html
- learc83 8y ago
  Steam also lets you sell steam keys on your own site, and they don't take a cut of that. There is a bit of an issue with selling your own Steam keys and selling on multiple platforms though. The more people who purchase your game on Steam, the higher Steam's algorithm will rank the game, so there's something to be said for not spreading out sales.
- opencl 8y ago
  itch is interesting in that game developers can choose the revenue cut, it defaults to itch getting 10% but can be set to anything from 0% to 100%. Steam is 30% as usual. Kitfox is taking 20% in exchange for handling marketing and customer support (after the store cut), leaving Zach and Tarn with 72% or 56% for itch and Steam respectively (assuming they use the itch default cut).
  - daemin 8y ago
    But as the old adage goes, 100% of 0 is still 0. The hope with releasing the game like this would be to bring in new players and a new form of revenue. I would also imagine that existing players might want to buy this version as well.
odorousrex 8y ago
Incidentally, Meph has also made one of the most fantastic game enhancing DF mods out there, Masterwork Dwarf Fortress.[1] I'm really glad to hear he is involved with this. [1] http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98196.0 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98196.0
tkiley 8y ago
> They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same procedures . . " I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it totally sucks. On the other hand, I suspect that as as consequence of this crappy pressure, Dwarf Fortress will reach a substantially wider audience and bring joy to a greater number of people. I'll be interested to see how Tarn looks back on this moment in, say, five years.
- conistonwater 8y ago
  > bring joy Yeah, right. I bet you'll see it in productivity statistics instead. It's as bad as Factorio.
  - gotocake 8y ago
    Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.
    - 0_gravitas 8y ago
      They do call it Cracktorio for a reason
      - Haga 8y ago
        Just one more line and then I will quit, go clean and choose real life.
        0_gravitas 8y ago
        Just one more belt*. In earnest, I owe a lot to factorio, I started playing it towards the beginning of my programming career, and I was in a rough way, I could solve all the little toy problems my professors would throw at me, but the second there was anything big, I fell apart. The fact of the matter is I was always doing everything in main, I had never really used functions for anything, I thought they were useless/extra work! And I eventually just had a moment playing factorio, looking at someone else's blueprint , and how neat and self contained it was, and how it had its organized and clear inputs and outputs... and it all just clicked. I'm much better at structuring my projects now and have very much become more function-centric in my work (I am actually currently falling for the clojure meme pretty heavily atm).
fzeroracer 8y ago
It's such a disaster to see people so severely affected by the healthcare system in America. If you haven't been keeping track, there's been a similar issue with SomethingAwful's Lowtax, who is deep in debt as a result of some of the medical issues he's going through. It's enough to certainly make me consider working in a different country. I wonder if there would be any possibilities of the Dwarf Fortress developers moving elsewhere such that they don't have to worry about a medical disaster bankrupting them.
- VectorLock 8y ago
  What kind of issues is Lowtax having?
  - eropple 8y ago
    Suffice to say that we're chipping in for Lowtax's spine fund.
  - jandrese 8y ago
    Some sort of Bone disease IIRC. One of the many rare conditions that are pretty much guaranteed to bankrupt you in the US, even with an expensive Cadillac healthcare plan. Bah: I was trying to check the announcement, but their forum is in lockdown mode again for some reason. Edit: Lockdown mode off. Link here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3884184&userid=27691#post493257410 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=38...
  - TaupeRanger 8y ago
    Seems like every week I hear about some horrible thing happening in the US healthcare system that makes me feel both disgusted and very lucky to not have any current health problems.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  This webcomic speaks directly to this issue. http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare
novok 8y ago
Since they live around Seattle, maybe they should consider immigrating a few hundred miles north to Canada? They might qualify under the self-employed artist category? https://www.settler.ca/english/immigration-to-canada-for-artists-performers-self-employed-people-in-cultural-activities/ https://www.settler.ca/english/immigration-to-canada-for-art...
- drak0n1c 8y ago
  If you are able to pay, American healthcare can be higher quality and more timely than Canadian care. Especially the hospitals and doctors in and around Seattle. That's why wealthy Canadians come to the US for some treatments. The hope is that they earn enough from the Steam royalties (which should happen given the popular rumor and storytelling around the game among gamers). Also, Canada has medical requirements and refuses immigrants whose admission "might cause excessive demand on existing social or health services provided by the government": https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/standard-requirements/medical-requirements.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co... https://www.canadavisa.com/immigration-medical-inadmissibility.html https://www.canadavisa.com/immigration-medical-inadmissibili...
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    This is not particularly true. It's not just wealthy Canadians, its the wealthiest of Canadians in general. Most people, even regularly wealthy Canadians, can't afford uninsured healthcare in America. We see far more people leaving the US for medical tourism than Canadians crossing the border for healthcare here.
  - kevindqc 8y ago
    I'm pretty sure the wealthiest go to the US because they have some of the best doctors, and they can afford to pay for it? There are private clinics here if you have money and don't want to wait, but of course it doesn't cover very specialized things. When I wanted to see a dermatologist, I would have had to wait 1-2 months for my first appointment in the public sector. I went to a private clinic and paid 200$ (plus like 75$ each subsequent visits) and was seen in 2 days. If you have a life-threatening condition, you're not gonna wait months. If they can't do the operation in Canada because of whatever is lacking (including equipment or personnel), they can send you to the US and the government will pay for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada#Canadians_visiting_the_US_to_receive_healthcare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada#Canadians...
stcredzero 8y ago
2) They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system I know both sides of this. Obamacare was truly a boon to me when I was an "independent consultant." We in the USA need to value our liberty. But if you want people to value liberty, you first have to keep them safe from Kafkaesque nightmares which involve their bodies not working correctly and not getting fixed. Basically, it works just like hunger. In particular, in the present day US, the societal cohorts which create media seem to be comprised of 1) out of touch left-leaning upper class people or 2) people with so few resources they are at risk. Together, they form a larger faction. This is a recipe for a society that stops tells itself it wants freedom and changes into a society that wants to take care of people. (1 are people who identify as those doing the taking care of, and 2 are people who would be taken care of.) If you want people who appreciate and take care of their freedom, you have to make sure they're not hungry and sick. History shows us this clearly. http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare
- twic 8y ago
  I don't understand what you've written at all. Are you in favour of the US healthcare system, or against it?
  - gameswithgo 8y ago
    I can tell that he is against but the rest of it was completely opaque to me
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      I can tell that he is against Not exactly. (Or maybe not necessarily.) I could picture a system I'd like that would look a lot like the system we have right now. I'm not expert enough to know how that would work. but the rest of it was completely opaque to me Are you part of the societal cohort comprised of left-leaning upper class people in tech and media? Are you part of the societal cohort comprised of lower middle class people working in tech and media? Are you from a different part of society? That would be useful information for writing a clarification. Exactly what part was opaque to you?
Pharmakon 8y ago
Oh man, I’m so sorry for the people involved who are in this position, yet I’m torn because the outcome here beyond that is ideal. I’m going to assuage my conflict with a big donation on bay12 and then I’m going to tell everyone I know who didn’t want to get into DF that the time is now!
MrFoof 8y ago
I'm one of the longer time Dwarf Fortress supporters, with somewhere around $2500 donated over the past decade or so via PayPal. If I remember correctly, it was around January 2007 when Tarn started accepting donations. I don't play it much, only a week every year or so to see what's new, get lost in the wacky reality of it all, and put it down to tend to other things. I read the communities from time to time. The wacky stories. Occasionally watch someone have a go on Twitch and enjoy seeing everything unfold. Dwarf Fortress is an unsung touchstone of internet culture. Game devs in AAA studios (I know a few) talk of it in hushed whispers -- most are aware of it, even if only a few of them have played it. In fact, Dwarf Fortress is what sparked Markus Persson to create Minecraft, which was originally intended to be a voxel version of Dwarf Fortress itself. I regret the circumstances that have resulted in Tarn and Zach having to find ways to bring in more income. They moved onto Patreon in the past year or so, and thankfully it was a meaningful increase in income. Hopefully Steam can help in that regard, as Tarn seems to manage his time and communication with the community quite well, and at least the Bay 12 forums by and large respects that he takes the time to reach out before continuing with the game as he sees fit. It's something very novel and lovingly crafted that creates real joy and sparks the imagination in ways most people will rarely see. Although a bit obtuse upfront, it is one of the most novel toys mankind has ever created. Hopefully this can ensure that its development can continue for much longer still, and help other people discover the magic that it is.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > In fact, Dwarf Fortress is what sparked Markus Persson to create Minecraft, which was originally intended to be a voxel version of Dwarf Fortress itself. No, Zach (Zachary) Barth's (of Zachtronics) Infiniminer was what sparked Markus Persson to create Minecraft.
  - phaedryx 8y ago
    There can be more than one influence. I think both were.

coldacid 8y ago

Also in the article but buried: 4) Steam/itch.io and Katfox take a cut so if you want to really help out Zach and Tarn you should donate directly @ http://www.bay12games.com/support.html http://www.bay12games.com/support.html

learc83 8y ago
Steam also lets you sell steam keys on your own site, and they don't take a cut of that. There is a bit of an issue with selling your own Steam keys and selling on multiple platforms though. The more people who purchase your game on Steam, the higher Steam's algorithm will rank the game, so there's something to be said for not spreading out sales.
opencl 8y ago
itch is interesting in that game developers can choose the revenue cut, it defaults to itch getting 10% but can be set to anything from 0% to 100%. Steam is 30% as usual. Kitfox is taking 20% in exchange for handling marketing and customer support (after the store cut), leaving Zach and Tarn with 72% or 56% for itch and Steam respectively (assuming they use the itch default cut).
- daemin 8y ago
  But as the old adage goes, 100% of 0 is still 0. The hope with releasing the game like this would be to bring in new players and a new form of revenue. I would also imagine that existing players might want to buy this version as well.

odorousrex 8y ago

Incidentally, Meph has also made one of the most fantastic game enhancing DF mods out there, Masterwork Dwarf Fortress.[1] I'm really glad to hear he is involved with this. [1] http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98196.0 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98196.0

tkiley 8y ago

> They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same procedures . . " I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, it totally sucks. On the other hand, I suspect that as as consequence of this crappy pressure, Dwarf Fortress will reach a substantially wider audience and bring joy to a greater number of people. I'll be interested to see how Tarn looks back on this moment in, say, five years.

conistonwater 8y ago
> bring joy Yeah, right. I bet you'll see it in productivity statistics instead. It's as bad as Factorio.
- gotocake 8y ago
  Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.
  - 0_gravitas 8y ago
    They do call it Cracktorio for a reason
    - Haga 8y ago
      Just one more line and then I will quit, go clean and choose real life.
      - 0_gravitas 8y ago
        Just one more belt*. In earnest, I owe a lot to factorio, I started playing it towards the beginning of my programming career, and I was in a rough way, I could solve all the little toy problems my professors would throw at me, but the second there was anything big, I fell apart. The fact of the matter is I was always doing everything in main, I had never really used functions for anything, I thought they were useless/extra work! And I eventually just had a moment playing factorio, looking at someone else's blueprint , and how neat and self contained it was, and how it had its organized and clear inputs and outputs... and it all just clicked. I'm much better at structuring my projects now and have very much become more function-centric in my work (I am actually currently falling for the clojure meme pretty heavily atm).

fzeroracer 8y ago

It's such a disaster to see people so severely affected by the healthcare system in America. If you haven't been keeping track, there's been a similar issue with SomethingAwful's Lowtax, who is deep in debt as a result of some of the medical issues he's going through. It's enough to certainly make me consider working in a different country. I wonder if there would be any possibilities of the Dwarf Fortress developers moving elsewhere such that they don't have to worry about a medical disaster bankrupting them.

VectorLock 8y ago
What kind of issues is Lowtax having?
- eropple 8y ago
  Suffice to say that we're chipping in for Lowtax's spine fund.
- jandrese 8y ago
  Some sort of Bone disease IIRC. One of the many rare conditions that are pretty much guaranteed to bankrupt you in the US, even with an expensive Cadillac healthcare plan. Bah: I was trying to check the announcement, but their forum is in lockdown mode again for some reason. Edit: Lockdown mode off. Link here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3884184&userid=27691#post493257410 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=38...
- TaupeRanger 8y ago
  Seems like every week I hear about some horrible thing happening in the US healthcare system that makes me feel both disgusted and very lucky to not have any current health problems.
stcredzero 8y ago
This webcomic speaks directly to this issue. http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare

novok 8y ago

Since they live around Seattle, maybe they should consider immigrating a few hundred miles north to Canada? They might qualify under the self-employed artist category? https://www.settler.ca/english/immigration-to-canada-for-artists-performers-self-employed-people-in-cultural-activities/ https://www.settler.ca/english/immigration-to-canada-for-art...

drak0n1c 8y ago
If you are able to pay, American healthcare can be higher quality and more timely than Canadian care. Especially the hospitals and doctors in and around Seattle. That's why wealthy Canadians come to the US for some treatments. The hope is that they earn enough from the Steam royalties (which should happen given the popular rumor and storytelling around the game among gamers). Also, Canada has medical requirements and refuses immigrants whose admission "might cause excessive demand on existing social or health services provided by the government": https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/standard-requirements/medical-requirements.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co... https://www.canadavisa.com/immigration-medical-inadmissibility.html https://www.canadavisa.com/immigration-medical-inadmissibili...
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  This is not particularly true. It's not just wealthy Canadians, its the wealthiest of Canadians in general. Most people, even regularly wealthy Canadians, can't afford uninsured healthcare in America. We see far more people leaving the US for medical tourism than Canadians crossing the border for healthcare here.
- kevindqc 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure the wealthiest go to the US because they have some of the best doctors, and they can afford to pay for it? There are private clinics here if you have money and don't want to wait, but of course it doesn't cover very specialized things. When I wanted to see a dermatologist, I would have had to wait 1-2 months for my first appointment in the public sector. I went to a private clinic and paid 200$ (plus like 75$ each subsequent visits) and was seen in 2 days. If you have a life-threatening condition, you're not gonna wait months. If they can't do the operation in Canada because of whatever is lacking (including equipment or personnel), they can send you to the US and the government will pay for it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada#Canadians_visiting_the_US_to_receive_healthcare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada#Canadians...

stcredzero 8y ago

2) They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system I know both sides of this. Obamacare was truly a boon to me when I was an "independent consultant." We in the USA need to value our liberty. But if you want people to value liberty, you first have to keep them safe from Kafkaesque nightmares which involve their bodies not working correctly and not getting fixed. Basically, it works just like hunger. In particular, in the present day US, the societal cohorts which create media seem to be comprised of 1) out of touch left-leaning upper class people or 2) people with so few resources they are at risk. Together, they form a larger faction. This is a recipe for a society that stops tells itself it wants freedom and changes into a society that wants to take care of people. (1 are people who identify as those doing the taking care of, and 2 are people who would be taken care of.) If you want people who appreciate and take care of their freedom, you have to make sure they're not hungry and sick. History shows us this clearly. http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare http://smbc-comics.com/comic/healthcare

twic 8y ago
I don't understand what you've written at all. Are you in favour of the US healthcare system, or against it?
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  I can tell that he is against but the rest of it was completely opaque to me
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    I can tell that he is against Not exactly. (Or maybe not necessarily.) I could picture a system I'd like that would look a lot like the system we have right now. I'm not expert enough to know how that would work. but the rest of it was completely opaque to me Are you part of the societal cohort comprised of left-leaning upper class people in tech and media? Are you part of the societal cohort comprised of lower middle class people working in tech and media? Are you from a different part of society? That would be useful information for writing a clarification. Exactly what part was opaque to you?

Pharmakon 8y ago

Oh man, I’m so sorry for the people involved who are in this position, yet I’m torn because the outcome here beyond that is ideal. I’m going to assuage my conflict with a big donation on bay12 and then I’m going to tell everyone I know who didn’t want to get into DF that the time is now!

MrFoof 8y ago

I'm one of the longer time Dwarf Fortress supporters, with somewhere around $2500 donated over the past decade or so via PayPal. If I remember correctly, it was around January 2007 when Tarn started accepting donations. I don't play it much, only a week every year or so to see what's new, get lost in the wacky reality of it all, and put it down to tend to other things. I read the communities from time to time. The wacky stories. Occasionally watch someone have a go on Twitch and enjoy seeing everything unfold. Dwarf Fortress is an unsung touchstone of internet culture. Game devs in AAA studios (I know a few) talk of it in hushed whispers -- most are aware of it, even if only a few of them have played it. In fact, Dwarf Fortress is what sparked Markus Persson to create Minecraft, which was originally intended to be a voxel version of Dwarf Fortress itself. I regret the circumstances that have resulted in Tarn and Zach having to find ways to bring in more income. They moved onto Patreon in the past year or so, and thankfully it was a meaningful increase in income. Hopefully Steam can help in that regard, as Tarn seems to manage his time and communication with the community quite well, and at least the Bay 12 forums by and large respects that he takes the time to reach out before continuing with the game as he sees fit. It's something very novel and lovingly crafted that creates real joy and sparks the imagination in ways most people will rarely see. Although a bit obtuse upfront, it is one of the most novel toys mankind has ever created. Hopefully this can ensure that its development can continue for much longer still, and help other people discover the magic that it is.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
wolfgke 8y ago
> In fact, Dwarf Fortress is what sparked Markus Persson to create Minecraft, which was originally intended to be a voxel version of Dwarf Fortress itself. No, Zach (Zachary) Barth's (of Zachtronics) Infiniminer was what sparked Markus Persson to create Minecraft.
- phaedryx 8y ago
  There can be more than one influence. I think both were.