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I agree that Spotify is taking the right stance. In their position, working on whatever team is responsible for fighting Apple, I would also do anything in my p

I agree that Spotify is taking the right stance. In their position, working on whatever team is responsible for fighting Apple, I would also do anything in my power to fight. Having said this, Apple can do as they please. They control the hardware, the OS, the App Store, and the user accounts. The same was true of Twitter who effectively squeezed access to their API until one or two desktop clients remained. The only two ways out of this is to legislate a lower rate (through campaigns such as these), or to create a competing platform that lowers costs for its users. Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... Wouldn't that send a very clear message to Apple?

thomascgalvin 8y ago
> Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... Wouldn't that send a very clear message to Apple? I believe this is also against Apple's Terms of Service. IIRC, they have a "most favored nation" clause which prohibits you from offering a lower price on a competing platform.
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  I was just looking for this in the App Store review guidelines and I couldn't find it. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
  - paulgb 8y ago
    Another piece of evidence: on the site, on June 2014, they mention raising the price to 13 Euro to make up for the 30% charge. I don't think they raised the price for web subscriptions at that time.
  - ric2b 8y ago
    1. "Subscriptions must work on all of the user’s devices where the app is available. Learn more about sharing a subscription across your apps." 2. "You must not directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods must not discourage use of in-app purchase." I think this implies that the subscription must be the same for all devices and you can't treat iOS differently. Pretty sure having a lower price if you subscribe on Android would violate that second clause.
    - ppeetteerr 8y ago
      > 2. "You must not directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods must not discourage use of in-app purchase." Right, the app must not say that subscribing outside of the app is cheaper. Unless there is proof of the contrary, the statements you point to do not imply that a provider cannot charge a different rate on a different platform.
  - billfruit 8y ago
    How can they insist anything at all about pricing on another platforms? Even if somehow it was possible, what a about discounts; are you saying app sellers cannot have platform specific discounts? What about region sensitive pricing (I know about it on Steam where the same item is much cheaper in Bangladesh than it is in the USA, no reson why Play Store can't do it).
    - sinnoh 8y ago
      Seriously, I thought I had a handle on the worst apple's done and this surprised me.
- mrkstu 8y ago
  They did for e-books, which they got sued for and lost. I believe they also used to have it for subscriptions to things like video services (i.e. if you offered a web price and a 'through the store' price, the store price couldn't be higher), but dropped it.
  - ihuman 8y ago
    They dropped it for video, but not audio?
    - mrkstu 8y ago
      I don't believe they've kept it anywhere. But if Spotify sells through the App Store they'll lose all their profits to Apple's commission, to sell at the same price, or they'll have to charge appreciably more (at non-competitively high prices) for their app store customers (or raise prices everywhere and subsidize their customers acquired through the app store.)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 8y ago
> Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... Wouldn't that send a very clear message to Apple? Apple shrugs and bans Spotify. Next move?
- qhwudbebd 8y ago
  Spotify petitions EU to sanction Apple for abuse of their monopoly on the iOS platform? Which looks a bit like what they've just done...
  - threeseed 8y ago
    Again. iOS is not a monopoly. Having a monopoly over their own product is what every company has.
    - qhwudbebd 8y ago
      "iOS is not a monopoly." I think the confusion here is that you incorrectly believe this is a necessary condition for Spotify's complaint to be upheld.
      - kccqzy 8y ago
        How so? I'm not very knowledgeable on antitrust law, but I do believe US regulators usually only take action on companies already having a monopoly.
        qhwudbebd 8y ago
        This is a complaint to the EU...
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  They won't. Not only will this cut into Apple's take, but it will send a very negative message to all other service publishers.
aclimatt 8y ago
Well, that's not entirely true, Apple can't exactly do what it wants. As other comments point out regarding Microsoft, Microsoft were forced to allow IE to be debundled and other competing browsers installed, because having a monopoly on a platform and using that platform to enforce anti-competitive practices is illegal under anti-trust law. So given Apple's marketshare (not a monopoly per se though pretty substantial), and given they both control the platform that people pay money to access, and promote preferential treatment of a first party service at the expense of any third party services, it sounds pretty ripe for an anti-trust lawsuit. The same I believe has recently been applied to Google in the EU for using its monopoly to promote its own product search results above other online stores. The only difference now is, the teeth of anti-trust regulators are a lot more dull than they were in the 90s, for various reasons.
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  Apple doesn't have a monopoly, it's less than 30% of the European phone market
  - shams93 8y ago
    They have a monopoly over their own app store. It's not like Spotify can just choose to distribute their iOS app directly or through a 3rd party app store
    - Architect0126 8y ago
      Isn't that like saying a store has a monopoly over their shelves?
      - coldacid 8y ago
        Except that if I don't like one store, I can always go to another. That's the case with Android, and at least to an extent with Windows (even store apps can be distributed and installed by package if you don't want to use their store, plus classic Windows apps are still a thing). With iOS, it's Apple's way or no way at all. There's no competition.
have_faith 8y ago
> Apple can do as they please I hope they continue to do so, in so much as I would like Apple to experience some backlash for having inconsistent stances when it comes to the app ecosystem and their rules.
ReptileMan 8y ago
Legislating consumer right to root and sideload is even better solution.
- sinnoh 8y ago
  they'll argue that they already have this while blissfully ignoring the fact that they've made its barrier to entry on their platform artificially high.
Blaiz0r 8y ago
> Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... They already did, the 12.99 for premium was only for purchase through the App store.
JustSomeNobody 8y ago
> Having said this, Apple can do as they please. They control the hardware, the OS, the App Store, and the user accounts. I disagree. Apple created the App Store and invited 3rd parties to host their apps there, so they should have to play fair for whatever the legal system deems is a good definition of fair.
blackflame7000 8y ago
"Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... Wouldn't that send a very clear message to Apple?" - That is exactly what Spotify should do. They need to use the fact that Apple is married to its platform against them. Charge Apple users 12.99 and Android users 9.99 and then beat them by offering superior content. If Apple users want to sign up online then they can get the 9.99 price.
- Kesty 8y ago
  They already used to do that https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/8/8913105/spotify-apple-app-store-email https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/8/8913105/spotify-apple-app-...
- berbec 8y ago
  How does Spotify do this and remain competitive with Apple's $9.99 offering. The offering Apple can make because they don't have to pay themselves a 30% cut.
  - blackflame7000 8y ago
    Well the fact is that they can’t so long as Apple is manipulating their platform but they can encourage people to leave the Apple platform which is far more devastating to Apple than losing music subscribers
    - berbec 8y ago
      Do you think Spotify has the customers to force Apple to change because of the number of people who switch to Android for their service? Or does Apple have the customers to kill Spotify by cutting them off?
      - blackflame7000 8y ago
        Whether they have the numbers or not this war was inevitable from the moment Apple announced their music subscription service. Ultimately it's going to come down to who does it better and by better, I mean which one helps people find new songs the best. But I will say one thing, I have had the iPhone since the very first model and I have never been closer to abandoning IOS because its price to value ratio is quickly becoming unfavorable. Anything that tips it further is not good for Apple especially now that they are no longer disclosing iPhone sales numbers, an indicator that they are declining.
freeopinion 8y ago
I think you have made a great point. Until Spotify gives a 30% price break to Android, this just looks like a contest of who gets to keep the gouge.
gimmeThaBeet 8y ago
Yeah, this does seem like a thorny issue. It feels like a shopping mall; you have this big space with a lot of people, a lot of things going on. If you didn't know what it was you could easily mistake it for a public space, but it most certainly is not. But then you have the complication in the analogy that afaik, the landlord doesn't usually operate stores? Similarly, at a local level, it looks pretty bad, Apple has advantages in its environment that allows it to operate in sort of unassailable ways. But indeed, if you zoom out, the big driver Apple has is millions and millions of iPhone users. Apple has users that want its products, spotify wants market access to those users, the link imo is "do the users want spotify more than apple?". And the answer I would think is no, but then that brings up I think the reasonable issue that there's a larger barrier in switching devices than there is in switching apps. Sorry for the ramble, the whole thing seems like a mess.

thomascgalvin 8y ago

> Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... Wouldn't that send a very clear message to Apple? I believe this is also against Apple's Terms of Service. IIRC, they have a "most favored nation" clause which prohibits you from offering a lower price on a competing platform.

ppeetteerr 8y ago
I was just looking for this in the App Store review guidelines and I couldn't find it. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
- paulgb 8y ago
  Another piece of evidence: on the site, on June 2014, they mention raising the price to 13 Euro to make up for the 30% charge. I don't think they raised the price for web subscriptions at that time.
- ric2b 8y ago
  1. "Subscriptions must work on all of the user’s devices where the app is available. Learn more about sharing a subscription across your apps." 2. "You must not directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods must not discourage use of in-app purchase." I think this implies that the subscription must be the same for all devices and you can't treat iOS differently. Pretty sure having a lower price if you subscribe on Android would violate that second clause.
  - ppeetteerr 8y ago
    > 2. "You must not directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods must not discourage use of in-app purchase." Right, the app must not say that subscribing outside of the app is cheaper. Unless there is proof of the contrary, the statements you point to do not imply that a provider cannot charge a different rate on a different platform.
- billfruit 8y ago
  How can they insist anything at all about pricing on another platforms? Even if somehow it was possible, what a about discounts; are you saying app sellers cannot have platform specific discounts? What about region sensitive pricing (I know about it on Steam where the same item is much cheaper in Bangladesh than it is in the USA, no reson why Play Store can't do it).
  - sinnoh 8y ago
    Seriously, I thought I had a handle on the worst apple's done and this surprised me.
mrkstu 8y ago
They did for e-books, which they got sued for and lost. I believe they also used to have it for subscriptions to things like video services (i.e. if you offered a web price and a 'through the store' price, the store price couldn't be higher), but dropped it.
- ihuman 8y ago
  They dropped it for video, but not audio?
  - mrkstu 8y ago
    I don't believe they've kept it anywhere. But if Spotify sells through the App Store they'll lose all their profits to Apple's commission, to sell at the same price, or they'll have to charge appreciably more (at non-competitively high prices) for their app store customers (or raise prices everywhere and subsidize their customers acquired through the app store.)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

pjc50 8y ago

> Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... Wouldn't that send a very clear message to Apple? Apple shrugs and bans Spotify. Next move?

qhwudbebd 8y ago
Spotify petitions EU to sanction Apple for abuse of their monopoly on the iOS platform? Which looks a bit like what they've just done...
- threeseed 8y ago
  Again. iOS is not a monopoly. Having a monopoly over their own product is what every company has.
  - qhwudbebd 8y ago
    "iOS is not a monopoly." I think the confusion here is that you incorrectly believe this is a necessary condition for Spotify's complaint to be upheld.
    - kccqzy 8y ago
      How so? I'm not very knowledgeable on antitrust law, but I do believe US regulators usually only take action on companies already having a monopoly.
      - qhwudbebd 8y ago
        This is a complaint to the EU...
ppeetteerr 8y ago
They won't. Not only will this cut into Apple's take, but it will send a very negative message to all other service publishers.

aclimatt 8y ago

Well, that's not entirely true, Apple can't exactly do what it wants. As other comments point out regarding Microsoft, Microsoft were forced to allow IE to be debundled and other competing browsers installed, because having a monopoly on a platform and using that platform to enforce anti-competitive practices is illegal under anti-trust law. So given Apple's marketshare (not a monopoly per se though pretty substantial), and given they both control the platform that people pay money to access, and promote preferential treatment of a first party service at the expense of any third party services, it sounds pretty ripe for an anti-trust lawsuit. The same I believe has recently been applied to Google in the EU for using its monopoly to promote its own product search results above other online stores. The only difference now is, the teeth of anti-trust regulators are a lot more dull than they were in the 90s, for various reasons.

ppeetteerr 8y ago
Apple doesn't have a monopoly, it's less than 30% of the European phone market
- shams93 8y ago
  They have a monopoly over their own app store. It's not like Spotify can just choose to distribute their iOS app directly or through a 3rd party app store
  - Architect0126 8y ago
    Isn't that like saying a store has a monopoly over their shelves?
    - coldacid 8y ago
      Except that if I don't like one store, I can always go to another. That's the case with Android, and at least to an extent with Windows (even store apps can be distributed and installed by package if you don't want to use their store, plus classic Windows apps are still a thing). With iOS, it's Apple's way or no way at all. There's no competition.

have_faith 8y ago

> Apple can do as they please I hope they continue to do so, in so much as I would like Apple to experience some backlash for having inconsistent stances when it comes to the app ecosystem and their rules.

ReptileMan 8y ago

Legislating consumer right to root and sideload is even better solution.

sinnoh 8y ago
they'll argue that they already have this while blissfully ignoring the fact that they've made its barrier to entry on their platform artificially high.

Blaiz0r 8y ago

> Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... They already did, the 12.99 for premium was only for purchase through the App store.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

> Having said this, Apple can do as they please. They control the hardware, the OS, the App Store, and the user accounts. I disagree. Apple created the App Store and invited 3rd parties to host their apps there, so they should have to play fair for whatever the legal system deems is a good definition of fair.

blackflame7000 8y ago

"Imagine if Spotify offered a lower rate for Android users... Wouldn't that send a very clear message to Apple?" - That is exactly what Spotify should do. They need to use the fact that Apple is married to its platform against them. Charge Apple users 12.99 and Android users 9.99 and then beat them by offering superior content. If Apple users want to sign up online then they can get the 9.99 price.

Kesty 8y ago
They already used to do that https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/8/8913105/spotify-apple-app-store-email https://www.theverge.com/2015/7/8/8913105/spotify-apple-app-...
berbec 8y ago
How does Spotify do this and remain competitive with Apple's $9.99 offering. The offering Apple can make because they don't have to pay themselves a 30% cut.
- blackflame7000 8y ago
  Well the fact is that they can’t so long as Apple is manipulating their platform but they can encourage people to leave the Apple platform which is far more devastating to Apple than losing music subscribers
  - berbec 8y ago
    Do you think Spotify has the customers to force Apple to change because of the number of people who switch to Android for their service? Or does Apple have the customers to kill Spotify by cutting them off?
    - blackflame7000 8y ago
      Whether they have the numbers or not this war was inevitable from the moment Apple announced their music subscription service. Ultimately it's going to come down to who does it better and by better, I mean which one helps people find new songs the best. But I will say one thing, I have had the iPhone since the very first model and I have never been closer to abandoning IOS because its price to value ratio is quickly becoming unfavorable. Anything that tips it further is not good for Apple especially now that they are no longer disclosing iPhone sales numbers, an indicator that they are declining.

freeopinion 8y ago

I think you have made a great point. Until Spotify gives a 30% price break to Android, this just looks like a contest of who gets to keep the gouge.

gimmeThaBeet 8y ago

Yeah, this does seem like a thorny issue. It feels like a shopping mall; you have this big space with a lot of people, a lot of things going on. If you didn't know what it was you could easily mistake it for a public space, but it most certainly is not. But then you have the complication in the analogy that afaik, the landlord doesn't usually operate stores? Similarly, at a local level, it looks pretty bad, Apple has advantages in its environment that allows it to operate in sort of unassailable ways. But indeed, if you zoom out, the big driver Apple has is millions and millions of iPhone users. Apple has users that want its products, spotify wants market access to those users, the link imo is "do the users want spotify more than apple?". And the answer I would think is no, but then that brings up I think the reasonable issue that there's a larger barrier in switching devices than there is in switching apps. Sorry for the ramble, the whole thing seems like a mess.