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American and Southwest Airlines are still flying the Max 8/9, and are refusing refunds (Southwest/American) and charging change fees (American) for customers co

by dahdum 8y ago

American and Southwest Airlines are still flying the Max 8/9, and are refusing refunds (Southwest/American) and charging change fees (American) for customers concerned for their safety. I don't understand this logic. They are essentially risking their entire company over the safety of this plane. If something happens now they'll be driven to bankruptcy at record speed.

Reason077 8y ago
One thing to note is that both American and Southwest's 737 Max aircraft are configured differently to those flown by most other operators, with regards to the display of AOA indicators and the "AOA DISAGREE" warning light. These features are optional and the fact that they are not present on Lion Air's aircraft may have contributed to that crash. https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines-is-adding-new-angle-of-attack-indicators-to-its-737-max-fleet/ https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines...
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  It would still be prudent to ground them anyways until they know for sure they avoid the problem with their solution.
- dahdum 8y ago
  That would mean Southwest strongly believes the lack of "AOA DISAGREE" caused the crashes, so they are safe to continue flying their fleet. If so, they should come out and say it. Right now, 737 Max Fleet is the deadliest plane per mile that is in the air [1], by a wide margin. Maybe it's an anomaly and the rate is much lower, but by the same reasoning, it could be worse. I'm not flying on one, and my opinion of Southwest and American is at a new low. 1. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-boeing-737-max-is-now-the-deadliest-mainstream-jetliner-203441321.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-boeing-737-max-is-now-the...
  - outworlder 8y ago
    > That would mean Southwest strongly believes the lack of "AOA DISAGREE" caused the crashes No, that only means that they believe this will improve pilot's situational awareness. You don't need that feature to override uncommanded trim. Until the FAA says the aircraft is unsafe, your opinion of these airlines is misplaced. They went beyond what's legally required and added an additional safety feature. Southwest exclusively flies 737s. They have one of the largest pilot corps for that type. The airline has good safety and maintenance records.
    - dahdum 8y ago
      While I understand your point and appreciate your knowledge of the situation, I’m left with the idea that while the rest of the world is grounding these planes until more is known Southwest is flying them anyway. The only motive I can see for them to do so is money. What’s the non-monetary harm in grounding until more is known? They are a small percentage of their fleet.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Southwest are extremely experienced with the 737 in general and have specifically trained on MCAS and its potential failures on the MAX. Southwest have been flying since the 1960s, and have I think a total of (3) fatalities. No relation or association to them but the operator and their training matters. Southwest are by any measure one of the safest airlines in the world.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    They have said it. At least, their airline pilots union has. https://swaparesources.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/pdf/Press_Releases/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302_Update_2.pdf https://swaparesources.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/pdf... .. the MAX aircraft has 17,000 recordable parameters and Southwest has compiled and analyzed a tremendous amount of data from more than 41,000 flights operated by the 34 MAX aircraft on property, and the data supports Southwest's continued confidence in the airworthiness and safety of the MAX. ... SWAPA also has pushed hard for Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor displays to be put on all our aircraft and those are now being implemented into the fleet. All of these tools, in addition to SWAPA Pilots having the most experience on 737s in the industry, give me no pause that not only are our aircraft safe, but you are the safest 737 operators in the sky.
- cmurf 8y ago
  Optional deconfliction UI for flaky angle of attack sensing? That's a indictment of the standard deliverable. Is this option free or do you have to pay for it?
bluntfang 8y ago
>If something happens now they'll be driven to bankruptcy at record speed. I hate to say it, but given the track record for appalling incidents happening with airlines in the US, I'll buy that dip.
praneshp 8y ago
> and are refusing refunds (Southwest/American) Is southwest refusing refunds? Not doubting you, just asking if there has been a story about it.
Mr_Shiba 8y ago
> They are essentially risking their entire company over the safety of this plane But all that profit, would someone think of stock holders please!?

by dahdum 8y ago

Reason077 8y ago

One thing to note is that both American and Southwest's 737 Max aircraft are configured differently to those flown by most other operators, with regards to the display of AOA indicators and the "AOA DISAGREE" warning light. These features are optional and the fact that they are not present on Lion Air's aircraft may have contributed to that crash. https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines-is-adding-new-angle-of-attack-indicators-to-its-737-max-fleet/ https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/southwest-airlines...

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
It would still be prudent to ground them anyways until they know for sure they avoid the problem with their solution.
dahdum 8y ago
That would mean Southwest strongly believes the lack of "AOA DISAGREE" caused the crashes, so they are safe to continue flying their fleet. If so, they should come out and say it. Right now, 737 Max Fleet is the deadliest plane per mile that is in the air [1], by a wide margin. Maybe it's an anomaly and the rate is much lower, but by the same reasoning, it could be worse. I'm not flying on one, and my opinion of Southwest and American is at a new low. 1. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-boeing-737-max-is-now-the-deadliest-mainstream-jetliner-203441321.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-boeing-737-max-is-now-the...
- outworlder 8y ago
  > That would mean Southwest strongly believes the lack of "AOA DISAGREE" caused the crashes No, that only means that they believe this will improve pilot's situational awareness. You don't need that feature to override uncommanded trim. Until the FAA says the aircraft is unsafe, your opinion of these airlines is misplaced. They went beyond what's legally required and added an additional safety feature. Southwest exclusively flies 737s. They have one of the largest pilot corps for that type. The airline has good safety and maintenance records.
  - dahdum 8y ago
    While I understand your point and appreciate your knowledge of the situation, I’m left with the idea that while the rest of the world is grounding these planes until more is known Southwest is flying them anyway. The only motive I can see for them to do so is money. What’s the non-monetary harm in grounding until more is known? They are a small percentage of their fleet.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Southwest are extremely experienced with the 737 in general and have specifically trained on MCAS and its potential failures on the MAX. Southwest have been flying since the 1960s, and have I think a total of (3) fatalities. No relation or association to them but the operator and their training matters. Southwest are by any measure one of the safest airlines in the world.
- ams6110 8y ago
  They have said it. At least, their airline pilots union has. https://swaparesources.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/pdf/Press_Releases/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_302_Update_2.pdf https://swaparesources.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/assets/pdf... .. the MAX aircraft has 17,000 recordable parameters and Southwest has compiled and analyzed a tremendous amount of data from more than 41,000 flights operated by the 34 MAX aircraft on property, and the data supports Southwest's continued confidence in the airworthiness and safety of the MAX. ... SWAPA also has pushed hard for Angle of Attack (AOA) sensor displays to be put on all our aircraft and those are now being implemented into the fleet. All of these tools, in addition to SWAPA Pilots having the most experience on 737s in the industry, give me no pause that not only are our aircraft safe, but you are the safest 737 operators in the sky.
cmurf 8y ago
Optional deconfliction UI for flaky angle of attack sensing? That's a indictment of the standard deliverable. Is this option free or do you have to pay for it?

bluntfang 8y ago

>If something happens now they'll be driven to bankruptcy at record speed. I hate to say it, but given the track record for appalling incidents happening with airlines in the US, I'll buy that dip.

praneshp 8y ago

> and are refusing refunds (Southwest/American) Is southwest refusing refunds? Not doubting you, just asking if there has been a story about it.

Mr_Shiba 8y ago

> They are essentially risking their entire company over the safety of this plane But all that profit, would someone think of stock holders please!?