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This article does nothing to demolish willpower as a concept. It's strikingly poorly argued. Yes, there are tactical transformations of concepts or situations y

by darawk 8y ago

This article does nothing to demolish willpower as a concept. It's strikingly poorly argued. Yes, there are tactical transformations of concepts or situations you can make to encourage yourself to do the right thing. If you want to diet, not keeping potato chips in the house is easier than having them there and white-knuckle resisting them every moment of your life (or it is for me at least). However, both of those things take a certain level of willpower. The second one may take exponentially more, and therefore be a bad choice to make, but it takes some level of will to even avoid buying the chips. The author tries to present it as though the mere fact that you can have cognitive strategies for improving these decisions destroys the concept of willpower. But it doesn't. Both of these things can be true. We need to get better at teaching people how to re-conceptualize things to improve their willpower, but they also need to have some in the first place! If you have no willpower, all the strategies in the world aren't going to prevent you from eating that cupcake. I will also add that I am a former addict, and had the same experience as his patient. A big part of quitting for me was indeed a reconceptualization of the issue. But that doesn't mean it didn't also take will. If you tell people in treatment that all they need to do is reframe their addiction, you're lying to them, and they're not going to get better. Yes, reframing is important, and so is a life-architecture that avoids dangerous situations, but there are going to be moments in their lives where their drug of choice is available to them, and in those moments, there is no substitute for will.

rconti 8y ago
I got bored and couldn't finish the article, but I was leaning towards your opinion. In any event, it only seems to argue against willpower versus addiction. As someone who has spent his life on-and-off exercising, I finally made a more long-lasting change and have lost 50lbs in 18mo and I'm in the best shape of my life. There's no secret, but the more time you spend thinking about it and focusing on it, and putting it in practice, the easier it gets. To me, it's mostly willpower. To the article's credit, however, I've had much better luck exercising regularly and cutting out bad foods than I have at cutting out alcohol :)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- pmarreck 8y ago
  I'm 12 down and trying for 50. I'm 46, 6'3", 245. Frankly it is difficult as a mfer. It feels like pure willpower as I'm not naturally athletic. Orangetheory is helping (holy crap, what a workout!), but also LoseIt (the app). Been at it since November and only have 10 lbs to show. But I will keep at it. Interesting thing- what finally hooked me exercise-wise was the mental boost, not the physical benefits (which are also great). And the Orangetheory workout is just great- and cost-effective. I'm going to end up being in the best shape of my life at 47. I wish I had not waited this long.
  - nradov 8y ago
    Exercise is great for many reasons, but if you want to lose 50lbs you're going to have to focus on the input side. Eating about 500kcal/day less than maintenance level will get you to your goal in about a year. Most people find that rate sustainable.
    - pmarreck 8y ago
      Yep, that's exactly what the LoseIt app is doing for me. But I have to log every single thing I eat (and my personal rule is "before it enters my mouth"), and that becomes quite onerous after a few months.
      - rconti 8y ago
        I'm not sure if this helps or hurts your motivation, but meal tracking was the one thing I said I'd never do ("I'd rather die than be one of those miserable calorie-counters"), but when I started (I use MyFitnessPal, but all should be the same), it was the best thing I had ever done. Not just for results, but for the positive feedback loop. To see, in realtime, "hey, I'm on track to lose 2lbs this week" and then see it show up on the scale, just made it the one thing I ever did that worked. Without tracking, your inputs and outputs are so disconnected. You might 'eat right and work out' out for a month, and see zero results, and give up. In fact I've done dry january maybe 3 years, and each time I said "well, I guess alcohol's not a problem, because I didn't lose a pound!" It's so easy to tell yourself these obvious lies when you're motivated to hear them, and don't see evidence to the contrary. The other thing is, it made me realize that most of my habits were actually really good, but the few bad ones were far worse than I thought, from a consumption standpoint. I've been tracking meals for the whole 18mo, and I barely even notice it anymore. I stopped entirely when I went on a 3 week vacation to south america, but the nice thing is, it's so easy to pick up where you left off.
benj111 8y ago
Agreed. My most charitable reading of it, is basically saying willpower isn't scientific enough, more precise words should be used. Combined with willpower (or lack of) has negative connotations, and so can be demotivating.
deburo 8y ago
What does having no willpower mean? Is it even possible? Does having strong willpower mean that you will be able to resist every single one of your many impulses if you see them as negative? Let me reformulate that: is willpower generalizable?
Symmetry 8y ago
It's fairly common for people to assume that anything must be entirely one way or entirely another. Success is either entirely luck or entirely hard work. We're either products of our nature or our nurture. And so on.
goldemerald 8y ago
I disagree with your assessment of the article. The Victorian definition of willpower is the same one my friends/family and I use today. Now that I have read the article I will be more mindful of how I use the term "willpower" compared to other concepts (like the cognitive strategies). The author makes a great case for how we use the term willpower is different scenarios to mean entirely different concepts. While the marshmellow experiment willpower is similar to interpersonal bargaining willpower, the difference is important for defining scientific vocabulary. The author is not talking about colloquial use of willpower. And these two separate use cases of the term need to be rectified. Granted, the author doesn't discuss solutions. But it seems to me a discussion of solutions would be better as another article.
- darawk 8y ago
  > I disagree with your assessment of the article. The Victorian definition of willpower is the same one my friends/family and I use today. Now that I have read the article I will be more mindful of how I use the term "willpower" compared to other concepts (like the cognitive strategies). Cognitive strategies are not in tension with willpower. They are complementary. You tradeoff one for the other. > The author makes a great case for how we use the term willpower is different scenarios to mean entirely different concepts. While the marshmellow experiment willpower is similar to interpersonal bargaining willpower, the difference is important for defining scientific vocabulary. The author is not talking about colloquial use of willpower. And these two separate use cases of the term need to be rectified. He's absolutely talking about colloquial use of the term. > These studies also set the stage for the modern definition of willpower which is described in both the academic and popular press as the capacity for immediate self-control—the top-down squelching of momentary impulses and urges. > The specific conception of “willpower,” however, didn’t emerge until the Victorian Era...Self-control became a Victorian obsession, promoted by publications like the immensely popular 1859 book Self-Help, which preached the values of “self-denial” and untiring perseverance. The Victorians took an idea directly from the Industrial Revolution and described willpower as a tangible force driving the engine of our self-control. The willpower-deficient were to be held in contempt. The earliest use of the word, in 1874 according to the Oxford English Dictionary, was in reference to moralistic worries about substance use: “The drunkard ... whose will-power and whose moral force have been conquered by degraded appetite.” These are the same definition. There is no meaningful difference between them as far as I can see.
selflesssieve 8y ago
I view willpower as Harry fighting off the Dementors in the Prisoner of Azkaban. He thought his dad was going to show up at any minute and fight off the Dementors (a powerful allegory for depression), but Harry realized he had to fight for himself. Once he realized that he radiated joy and fought off the horde of Dementors. As an aside, I believe we would be prudent to not give in to substances/habits that form addictions. You could say that John/Thomas have incredibly high willpower that they are willing to keep poisoning themselves even though they consciously know the effects. The dependence on alcohol was trained, and now they have an abundance of "willpower" to continue doing just that.
- benj111 8y ago
  "I believe we would be prudent to not give in to substances/habits that form addictions" I take it you're referring to abstention? That would be very hard to do given the wide variety of addictions (everything?) Think of addiction as a symptom rather than a problem in its own right, the article briefly goes there by revealing that one of the men was stressed.
  - selflesssieve 8y ago
    First, I apologize, I didn't word my first sentence as syntactically clear as I realized. Give in is a bit of a loose term here. Instead I would say that a person should recognize their habits changing due to the substance and they would avoid over indulging before it was too late. A period of abstinence may be necessary here to reset tolerances/ align short term and long term goals. Second, for your last point, the man seeks a coping mechanism for his stress, but does he lack agency and therefore colloquial willpower when he decides which cooping mechanism he chooses? (That's an up in the air question for a more generalized form.)
    - benj111 8y ago
      First paragraph, agreed (excepting highly addictive drugs). I suppose you could argue someone were searching for agency by doing a self destructive thing. I don't think willpower comes into it. Although I would agree willpower and agency are related insofar as if you don't feel you have agency, its probably hard to show much willpower.
Quekid5 8y ago
Isn't "taking will" essentially about changing habits? Personally, I find that habit and habituation is all that takes to slip back into weekend binging (etc.). Once I break the habit it's pretty easy to stay out of it[0]. Unfortunately, there are various things that'll trigger the urge to return to your old habits. Intellectually it's trivial to see what must be done, but it's just that it's sooooo easy to just fall back to binge every weekend. It's really strange to me that the article didn't mention "habit" even once[1], [0] Obviously, this may not apply for everyone. I'm not sure that I'm 'clinically' addicted, but it sure feels like it. [1] Well, it did but it was just in a tangential sense of "it became a habit" or similar.

by darawk 8y ago

rconti 8y ago

I got bored and couldn't finish the article, but I was leaning towards your opinion. In any event, it only seems to argue against willpower versus addiction. As someone who has spent his life on-and-off exercising, I finally made a more long-lasting change and have lost 50lbs in 18mo and I'm in the best shape of my life. There's no secret, but the more time you spend thinking about it and focusing on it, and putting it in practice, the easier it gets. To me, it's mostly willpower. To the article's credit, however, I've had much better luck exercising regularly and cutting out bad foods than I have at cutting out alcohol :)

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pmarreck 8y ago
I'm 12 down and trying for 50. I'm 46, 6'3", 245. Frankly it is difficult as a mfer. It feels like pure willpower as I'm not naturally athletic. Orangetheory is helping (holy crap, what a workout!), but also LoseIt (the app). Been at it since November and only have 10 lbs to show. But I will keep at it. Interesting thing- what finally hooked me exercise-wise was the mental boost, not the physical benefits (which are also great). And the Orangetheory workout is just great- and cost-effective. I'm going to end up being in the best shape of my life at 47. I wish I had not waited this long.
- nradov 8y ago
  Exercise is great for many reasons, but if you want to lose 50lbs you're going to have to focus on the input side. Eating about 500kcal/day less than maintenance level will get you to your goal in about a year. Most people find that rate sustainable.
  - pmarreck 8y ago
    Yep, that's exactly what the LoseIt app is doing for me. But I have to log every single thing I eat (and my personal rule is "before it enters my mouth"), and that becomes quite onerous after a few months.
    - rconti 8y ago
      I'm not sure if this helps or hurts your motivation, but meal tracking was the one thing I said I'd never do ("I'd rather die than be one of those miserable calorie-counters"), but when I started (I use MyFitnessPal, but all should be the same), it was the best thing I had ever done. Not just for results, but for the positive feedback loop. To see, in realtime, "hey, I'm on track to lose 2lbs this week" and then see it show up on the scale, just made it the one thing I ever did that worked. Without tracking, your inputs and outputs are so disconnected. You might 'eat right and work out' out for a month, and see zero results, and give up. In fact I've done dry january maybe 3 years, and each time I said "well, I guess alcohol's not a problem, because I didn't lose a pound!" It's so easy to tell yourself these obvious lies when you're motivated to hear them, and don't see evidence to the contrary. The other thing is, it made me realize that most of my habits were actually really good, but the few bad ones were far worse than I thought, from a consumption standpoint. I've been tracking meals for the whole 18mo, and I barely even notice it anymore. I stopped entirely when I went on a 3 week vacation to south america, but the nice thing is, it's so easy to pick up where you left off.

benj111 8y ago

Agreed. My most charitable reading of it, is basically saying willpower isn't scientific enough, more precise words should be used. Combined with willpower (or lack of) has negative connotations, and so can be demotivating.

deburo 8y ago

What does having no willpower mean? Is it even possible? Does having strong willpower mean that you will be able to resist every single one of your many impulses if you see them as negative? Let me reformulate that: is willpower generalizable?

Symmetry 8y ago

It's fairly common for people to assume that anything must be entirely one way or entirely another. Success is either entirely luck or entirely hard work. We're either products of our nature or our nurture. And so on.

goldemerald 8y ago

I disagree with your assessment of the article. The Victorian definition of willpower is the same one my friends/family and I use today. Now that I have read the article I will be more mindful of how I use the term "willpower" compared to other concepts (like the cognitive strategies). The author makes a great case for how we use the term willpower is different scenarios to mean entirely different concepts. While the marshmellow experiment willpower is similar to interpersonal bargaining willpower, the difference is important for defining scientific vocabulary. The author is not talking about colloquial use of willpower. And these two separate use cases of the term need to be rectified. Granted, the author doesn't discuss solutions. But it seems to me a discussion of solutions would be better as another article.

darawk 8y ago
> I disagree with your assessment of the article. The Victorian definition of willpower is the same one my friends/family and I use today. Now that I have read the article I will be more mindful of how I use the term "willpower" compared to other concepts (like the cognitive strategies). Cognitive strategies are not in tension with willpower. They are complementary. You tradeoff one for the other. > The author makes a great case for how we use the term willpower is different scenarios to mean entirely different concepts. While the marshmellow experiment willpower is similar to interpersonal bargaining willpower, the difference is important for defining scientific vocabulary. The author is not talking about colloquial use of willpower. And these two separate use cases of the term need to be rectified. He's absolutely talking about colloquial use of the term. > These studies also set the stage for the modern definition of willpower which is described in both the academic and popular press as the capacity for immediate self-control—the top-down squelching of momentary impulses and urges. > The specific conception of “willpower,” however, didn’t emerge until the Victorian Era...Self-control became a Victorian obsession, promoted by publications like the immensely popular 1859 book Self-Help, which preached the values of “self-denial” and untiring perseverance. The Victorians took an idea directly from the Industrial Revolution and described willpower as a tangible force driving the engine of our self-control. The willpower-deficient were to be held in contempt. The earliest use of the word, in 1874 according to the Oxford English Dictionary, was in reference to moralistic worries about substance use: “The drunkard ... whose will-power and whose moral force have been conquered by degraded appetite.” These are the same definition. There is no meaningful difference between them as far as I can see.

selflesssieve 8y ago

I view willpower as Harry fighting off the Dementors in the Prisoner of Azkaban. He thought his dad was going to show up at any minute and fight off the Dementors (a powerful allegory for depression), but Harry realized he had to fight for himself. Once he realized that he radiated joy and fought off the horde of Dementors. As an aside, I believe we would be prudent to not give in to substances/habits that form addictions. You could say that John/Thomas have incredibly high willpower that they are willing to keep poisoning themselves even though they consciously know the effects. The dependence on alcohol was trained, and now they have an abundance of "willpower" to continue doing just that.

benj111 8y ago
"I believe we would be prudent to not give in to substances/habits that form addictions" I take it you're referring to abstention? That would be very hard to do given the wide variety of addictions (everything?) Think of addiction as a symptom rather than a problem in its own right, the article briefly goes there by revealing that one of the men was stressed.
- selflesssieve 8y ago
  First, I apologize, I didn't word my first sentence as syntactically clear as I realized. Give in is a bit of a loose term here. Instead I would say that a person should recognize their habits changing due to the substance and they would avoid over indulging before it was too late. A period of abstinence may be necessary here to reset tolerances/ align short term and long term goals. Second, for your last point, the man seeks a coping mechanism for his stress, but does he lack agency and therefore colloquial willpower when he decides which cooping mechanism he chooses? (That's an up in the air question for a more generalized form.)
  - benj111 8y ago
    First paragraph, agreed (excepting highly addictive drugs). I suppose you could argue someone were searching for agency by doing a self destructive thing. I don't think willpower comes into it. Although I would agree willpower and agency are related insofar as if you don't feel you have agency, its probably hard to show much willpower.

Quekid5 8y ago

Isn't "taking will" essentially about changing habits? Personally, I find that habit and habituation is all that takes to slip back into weekend binging (etc.). Once I break the habit it's pretty easy to stay out of it[0]. Unfortunately, there are various things that'll trigger the urge to return to your old habits. Intellectually it's trivial to see what must be done, but it's just that it's sooooo easy to just fall back to binge every weekend. It's really strange to me that the article didn't mention "habit" even once[1], [0] Obviously, this may not apply for everyone. I'm not sure that I'm 'clinically' addicted, but it sure feels like it. [1] Well, it did but it was just in a tangential sense of "it became a habit" or similar.