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We look and learn from our neighbours to the South, and what outcomes we see down there generates strong public support to maintain the system we have. Frankly

We look and learn from our neighbours to the South, and what outcomes we see down there generates strong public support to maintain the system we have. Frankly, as a consumer, American dairy, beef, poultry and produce make me nervous.

gerbilly 8y ago
I never eat any animal products when travelling in the US. They are of much lower quality, and full of hormones and additives.
ucaetano 8y ago
> generates strong public support to maintain the system we have. Oh, yeah, everyone loves a protectionist market, when they're part of it...
- dleslie 8y ago
  I'm not a farmer; as a consumer in a managed market, wouldn't your platitudes imply that I should desire a free market? As it is, the products I buy are reasonably priced, high quality, and safe.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    Even consumers frequently love the idea of a protected ("managed" market is a misleading term for "we subsidize and protect certain incumbents"), particularly when it is a national market (for nationalistic reasons) or when it is associated with a romantic/emotional vision ("oh, the poor little honest canadian farmers, working dawn to dusk and being protected from the evil massive corporations"). This is particularly true when you're not price-sensitive (i.e. poor), which by being on Hacker News, you most likely aren't. So you don't mind paying more for that emotional feeling that you're "protecting" those farmers, even if other people might be more sensitive to the cost. A government protecting farmers isn't any different than it protecting monopolies, and is just as bad. The only difference is the emotional & nostalgic impact on people.
    - dleslie 8y ago
      The difference, in this case, is objectively measurable: Canadian poultry, beef, dairy and produce are generally safer than American. Also, I'm Canadian. I'm not making an American tech salary, not by any stretch of the imagination.
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        > The difference, in this case, is objectively measurable: Canadian poultry, beef, dairy and produce are generally safer than American. I'd like to see sources for that, and even if that's true, it doesn't imply that the market subsidies are the cause of that. > Also, I'm Canadian. I'm not making an American tech salary, not by any stretch of the imagination. You don't have to be making a tech salary to be less sensitive about the price of beef.
        ViktorV 8y ago
        I never quite understood this. I'm from eastern EU, I don't consider my country "poor", but people who are on the bottom of the economic ladder do not eat beef here ( cheap beef is ~4usd/lbs, chicken thighs are 1.5usd/lbs ). Maybe it's just my ignorance, but for me this sounds equally ridiculous to someone who expresses his concerns about how poor people could afford lobsters if the price goes any higher. Pure meat is expensive, and it's a luxury, not a necessity. The prices of meats are roughly equal to the US and making 20k$/yr makes you rich here, money won't be a limiting factor when it comes to food. Avg. salary in Missisipi is 40k$/yr, and that's the lowest one. Of course you can't eat out in the nicest places every day from that salary. This is what constitutes being poor in the US ( not being able to do that )? You can always cook at home, and it's very cheap, is the price of the food really a big weight for people in the US ( let's say the bottom 40% )? Maybe being poor is just being poor compared to others in your area, and it's mostly a mental thing. I lived on 250usd/month and life was good. Went to the farmers market, cooked my own food, I felt spoiled by the food choices I could make. I can make amazing food from various intestines, the taste is amazing, cheap as hell, and it's the best quality protein you can get your hands on for example.
Scoundreller 8y ago
Can we import whatever model France has? I’m fed up with croissants made without butter and “cheese” that tastes like rubber at high prices. If it requires subsidizing farmers through higher income taxes, so be it. That makes a lot more sense than a government policy of high food prices. What next, a tax on child care? A vaccine tax? Military enrolment fee?
- dleslie 8y ago
  That's not an artifact of supply management so much as it is health regulations. The Government is worried that unpasteurized dairy will kill us, so we miss out on a fair amount of cheeses.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    It’s not just the unpasteurized dairy I’m missing. The prices on the cheese that we import is dramatically higher than expected for an imported good.
    - dleslie 8y ago
      Imported cheese tariffs are an international trade issue. CETA was intended to help with this, but grocers et al aren't choosing to import European cheeses. :( https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/buyer-beware-european-cheesemakers-complain-canada-not-importing-all-the-cheese-it-said-it-would-under-trade-deal https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/buyer-beware...
      - Scoundreller 8y ago
        The tariffs exist to protect the supply management system. No tariffs = disappearance of supply management overnight. CETA only slightly increased the amount of cheese that can be imported duty/tariff free. It’s by no means a free-for-all with EU cheese. I wish it were.
        8y ago

gerbilly 8y ago

I never eat any animal products when travelling in the US. They are of much lower quality, and full of hormones and additives.

ucaetano 8y ago

> generates strong public support to maintain the system we have. Oh, yeah, everyone loves a protectionist market, when they're part of it...

dleslie 8y ago
I'm not a farmer; as a consumer in a managed market, wouldn't your platitudes imply that I should desire a free market? As it is, the products I buy are reasonably priced, high quality, and safe.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  Even consumers frequently love the idea of a protected ("managed" market is a misleading term for "we subsidize and protect certain incumbents"), particularly when it is a national market (for nationalistic reasons) or when it is associated with a romantic/emotional vision ("oh, the poor little honest canadian farmers, working dawn to dusk and being protected from the evil massive corporations"). This is particularly true when you're not price-sensitive (i.e. poor), which by being on Hacker News, you most likely aren't. So you don't mind paying more for that emotional feeling that you're "protecting" those farmers, even if other people might be more sensitive to the cost. A government protecting farmers isn't any different than it protecting monopolies, and is just as bad. The only difference is the emotional & nostalgic impact on people.
  - dleslie 8y ago
    The difference, in this case, is objectively measurable: Canadian poultry, beef, dairy and produce are generally safer than American. Also, I'm Canadian. I'm not making an American tech salary, not by any stretch of the imagination.
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      > The difference, in this case, is objectively measurable: Canadian poultry, beef, dairy and produce are generally safer than American. I'd like to see sources for that, and even if that's true, it doesn't imply that the market subsidies are the cause of that. > Also, I'm Canadian. I'm not making an American tech salary, not by any stretch of the imagination. You don't have to be making a tech salary to be less sensitive about the price of beef.
      - ViktorV 8y ago
        I never quite understood this. I'm from eastern EU, I don't consider my country "poor", but people who are on the bottom of the economic ladder do not eat beef here ( cheap beef is ~4usd/lbs, chicken thighs are 1.5usd/lbs ). Maybe it's just my ignorance, but for me this sounds equally ridiculous to someone who expresses his concerns about how poor people could afford lobsters if the price goes any higher. Pure meat is expensive, and it's a luxury, not a necessity. The prices of meats are roughly equal to the US and making 20k$/yr makes you rich here, money won't be a limiting factor when it comes to food. Avg. salary in Missisipi is 40k$/yr, and that's the lowest one. Of course you can't eat out in the nicest places every day from that salary. This is what constitutes being poor in the US ( not being able to do that )? You can always cook at home, and it's very cheap, is the price of the food really a big weight for people in the US ( let's say the bottom 40% )? Maybe being poor is just being poor compared to others in your area, and it's mostly a mental thing. I lived on 250usd/month and life was good. Went to the farmers market, cooked my own food, I felt spoiled by the food choices I could make. I can make amazing food from various intestines, the taste is amazing, cheap as hell, and it's the best quality protein you can get your hands on for example.

Scoundreller 8y ago

Can we import whatever model France has? I’m fed up with croissants made without butter and “cheese” that tastes like rubber at high prices. If it requires subsidizing farmers through higher income taxes, so be it. That makes a lot more sense than a government policy of high food prices. What next, a tax on child care? A vaccine tax? Military enrolment fee?

dleslie 8y ago
That's not an artifact of supply management so much as it is health regulations. The Government is worried that unpasteurized dairy will kill us, so we miss out on a fair amount of cheeses.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  It’s not just the unpasteurized dairy I’m missing. The prices on the cheese that we import is dramatically higher than expected for an imported good.
  - dleslie 8y ago
    Imported cheese tariffs are an international trade issue. CETA was intended to help with this, but grocers et al aren't choosing to import European cheeses. :( https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/buyer-beware-european-cheesemakers-complain-canada-not-importing-all-the-cheese-it-said-it-would-under-trade-deal https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/buyer-beware...
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      The tariffs exist to protect the supply management system. No tariffs = disappearance of supply management overnight. CETA only slightly increased the amount of cheese that can be imported duty/tariff free. It’s by no means a free-for-all with EU cheese. I wish it were.
      - 8y ago