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Responding to your edit: I downvoted you because your comment was not constructive and basically was just chastising a project composed entirely of a few geogr

Responding to your edit: I downvoted you because your comment was not constructive and basically was just chastising a project composed entirely of a few geographically-separated volunteers. It's very honestly amazing what they've accomplished.

benj111 8y ago
Wasn't intended to chastise them at all. Yes it is amazing what they've accomplished. I was mourning the fact that despite all the mind share, all the talented developers, they didn't manage to produce an OS that just works (tm). I'm cognizant of the fact Linus Torvalds started out very in similar circumstances. I don't know if it is Linux taking too much air out of the room, or if in 2019, building the OS that just works (tm) is just too bigger job for volunteers. That is the shame.
- jnbiche 8y ago
  A modern os is vastly more complex than what Linus was working with in the early 1990s. Recall that the web had just been invented at that point.
  - hedora 8y ago
    I’m not sure I buy this. X86 hardware diversity exploded shortly after Linux took off, which gave more popular operating systems a huge incumbent advantage. However, now that Moore’s law has petered out, you can target Intel’s current mainstream SoC, and you have a bootable product. Hopefully this translates into more competition in the operating system kernel space.
    - zapzupnz 8y ago
      I'm not sure I see the link between your comment and the one to which you're replying. GP is saying that the expected components that make up a modern operating system, including things that might be seen to be 'trivial' such as full USB 3.0+ support; a full, robust networking stack; the sorts of security and protections against modern methods of attack from bad actors; all on top of modern, efficient, and possibly even forward-thinking APIs that make developing for the OS efficient and even a joy for developers — these things are neither trivial, easy, or quick to do. Whereas you're talking about just hardware, which is not even close to the whole story when it comes to an OS in 2019.
      - benj111 8y ago
        For the record, I didn't say 'trivial'. I said basic, in the sense of USB 3 is a basic component I would expect to see in an modern OS. I did not, and do not claim that it would be trivial to implement.
        zapzupnz 8y ago
        You're not even the person about whose comment I was referring.
        benj111 8y ago
        It was either me or Jnbiche, and jnbiche is saying the opposite of what you're saying he's saying, whereas if you squint a bit I did, and I may not have been your gp, but was the gp of the person you were referring to. So you see my confusion.
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  > I was mourning the fact that despite all the mind share, all the talented developers, they didn't manage to produce an OS that just works (tm). We have ~10-15 major active contributors, and with that, we can basically compete with "Desktop Linux" in terms of functionality. Not everything works or is polished to the degree we'd like ... but it's nearly there. So then who is the one wasting the "mind share" -- the Linux DE space, with its hundreds of developers spread across dozens of projects, or us, who can do basically the same thing with a fraction of the time and resources?
  - benj111 8y ago
    "basically compete with "Desktop Linux" in terms of functionality" On what terms? "Not everything works or is polished to the degree we'd like ... but it's nearly there" What does nearly mean? Please don't interpret those as being argumentative rhetorical questions, I take the we to mean you're a contributor, so you have the right to define those. The first Alpha was in 2009? So personally I'd expect you to be there by now. And I'd expect an OS that just works, which would include working USB 3, and a decent web browser. So when is a stable release due, (I would like to try it)? What are your aims for the OS? Do you want an OS that I can recommend grandma puts on her computer knowing it will work, or is it an OS where I'll have fun diving into config files? Reading the website etc I've understood the longterm aim to be the former. If I'm wrong please let me know, so I can calibrate my expectations. Thanks for your reply btw. I do want you to succeed.
    - waddlesplash 8y ago
      > "basically compete with "Desktop Linux" in terms of functionality" On what terms? Err ... I don't know what you mean? > "Not everything works or is polished to the degree we'd like ... but it's nearly there" What does nearly mean? Uh, it means there are still a lot of bugs, and some missing major/minor features in certain areas (e.g. GPU acceleration is a massive TODO / WIP; I have some work on it out-of-tree but it's not in yet.) > The first Alpha was in 2009? So personally I'd expect you to be there by now. Uh, excuse me? By whose standards? We are, as I said, 10-15 (well, then it was a little more) people who do this for fun. We have lives outside of open source development, you know. We aren't paid to do this. > And I'd expect an OS that just works, which would include working USB 3, and a decent web browser. So you expect a product. Great. Who's paying? > So when is a stable release due, (I would like to try it)? What's stopping you from trying it right now...? > Do you want an OS that I can recommend grandma puts on her computer knowing it will work, or is it an OS where I'll have fun diving into config files? Reading the website etc I've understood the longterm aim to be the former. That is correct.

benj111 8y ago

Wasn't intended to chastise them at all. Yes it is amazing what they've accomplished. I was mourning the fact that despite all the mind share, all the talented developers, they didn't manage to produce an OS that just works (tm). I'm cognizant of the fact Linus Torvalds started out very in similar circumstances. I don't know if it is Linux taking too much air out of the room, or if in 2019, building the OS that just works (tm) is just too bigger job for volunteers. That is the shame.

jnbiche 8y ago
A modern os is vastly more complex than what Linus was working with in the early 1990s. Recall that the web had just been invented at that point.
- hedora 8y ago
  I’m not sure I buy this. X86 hardware diversity exploded shortly after Linux took off, which gave more popular operating systems a huge incumbent advantage. However, now that Moore’s law has petered out, you can target Intel’s current mainstream SoC, and you have a bootable product. Hopefully this translates into more competition in the operating system kernel space.
  - zapzupnz 8y ago
    I'm not sure I see the link between your comment and the one to which you're replying. GP is saying that the expected components that make up a modern operating system, including things that might be seen to be 'trivial' such as full USB 3.0+ support; a full, robust networking stack; the sorts of security and protections against modern methods of attack from bad actors; all on top of modern, efficient, and possibly even forward-thinking APIs that make developing for the OS efficient and even a joy for developers — these things are neither trivial, easy, or quick to do. Whereas you're talking about just hardware, which is not even close to the whole story when it comes to an OS in 2019.
    - benj111 8y ago
      For the record, I didn't say 'trivial'. I said basic, in the sense of USB 3 is a basic component I would expect to see in an modern OS. I did not, and do not claim that it would be trivial to implement.
      - zapzupnz 8y ago
        You're not even the person about whose comment I was referring.
        benj111 8y ago
        It was either me or Jnbiche, and jnbiche is saying the opposite of what you're saying he's saying, whereas if you squint a bit I did, and I may not have been your gp, but was the gp of the person you were referring to. So you see my confusion.
waddlesplash 8y ago
> I was mourning the fact that despite all the mind share, all the talented developers, they didn't manage to produce an OS that just works (tm). We have ~10-15 major active contributors, and with that, we can basically compete with "Desktop Linux" in terms of functionality. Not everything works or is polished to the degree we'd like ... but it's nearly there. So then who is the one wasting the "mind share" -- the Linux DE space, with its hundreds of developers spread across dozens of projects, or us, who can do basically the same thing with a fraction of the time and resources?
- benj111 8y ago
  "basically compete with "Desktop Linux" in terms of functionality" On what terms? "Not everything works or is polished to the degree we'd like ... but it's nearly there" What does nearly mean? Please don't interpret those as being argumentative rhetorical questions, I take the we to mean you're a contributor, so you have the right to define those. The first Alpha was in 2009? So personally I'd expect you to be there by now. And I'd expect an OS that just works, which would include working USB 3, and a decent web browser. So when is a stable release due, (I would like to try it)? What are your aims for the OS? Do you want an OS that I can recommend grandma puts on her computer knowing it will work, or is it an OS where I'll have fun diving into config files? Reading the website etc I've understood the longterm aim to be the former. If I'm wrong please let me know, so I can calibrate my expectations. Thanks for your reply btw. I do want you to succeed.
  - waddlesplash 8y ago
    > "basically compete with "Desktop Linux" in terms of functionality" On what terms? Err ... I don't know what you mean? > "Not everything works or is polished to the degree we'd like ... but it's nearly there" What does nearly mean? Uh, it means there are still a lot of bugs, and some missing major/minor features in certain areas (e.g. GPU acceleration is a massive TODO / WIP; I have some work on it out-of-tree but it's not in yet.) > The first Alpha was in 2009? So personally I'd expect you to be there by now. Uh, excuse me? By whose standards? We are, as I said, 10-15 (well, then it was a little more) people who do this for fun. We have lives outside of open source development, you know. We aren't paid to do this. > And I'd expect an OS that just works, which would include working USB 3, and a decent web browser. So you expect a product. Great. Who's paying? > So when is a stable release due, (I would like to try it)? What's stopping you from trying it right now...? > Do you want an OS that I can recommend grandma puts on her computer knowing it will work, or is it an OS where I'll have fun diving into config files? Reading the website etc I've understood the longterm aim to be the former. That is correct.