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So I guess Haiku development isn't going that well if they're struggling to get USB 3 sorted. Shame, it seemed a promising project. Edit: Okay my assessment w

So I guess Haiku development isn't going that well if they're struggling to get USB 3 sorted. Shame, it seemed a promising project. Edit: Okay my assessment was based on this, the fact that there only seems to be a beta release for download, and there didn't seem to be a decent web browser at some point fairly recently ( there was a story on HN?). Are these misunderstandings? Do we have different definitions of 'doing well'?

hakfoo 8y ago
I suspect their work optimizes around a relatively narrow band of supported hardware. The Beta 1 release, when I tried it on my Ryzen-based desktop, wouldn't get past the splash screen, stalling out at things that seemed to revolve around the SATA controller. Meanwhile, pop the same flash drive in a Thinkpad X230t, and it booted and installed fine, and even Wi-Fi worked without a significant hitch.
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  > The Beta 1 release, when I tried it on my Ryzen-based desktop, wouldn't get past the splash screen, stalling out at things that seemed to revolve around the SATA controller. Did any icons light up? There was (is) an undiagnosed issue that is preventing BIOS booting from working on Ryzen. I know one of the other devs runs Haiku on his Ryzen via EFI and says it works like a charm. > I suspect their work optimizes around a relatively narrow band of supported hardware. Not by design, but just by circumstance -- we developers optimize for the hardware we have and use, and not many others tend to submit patches, so that's the way it goes.
puppetmaster 8y ago
I've been using haiku as my main work os for a couple of months now. Granted, there are issues, but none of them too annoying to prevent me from getting things done... except for xhci. It would seem like this specification has been a pain point for many other projects before. For a os with only a few contributors doing work on their freetime, I think it is going great. (My opinion, like mouths... everybody has one)
- benj111 8y ago
  USB 3 support seems.. Basic at this point? The post mentions 2012 when chips became prevalent so this isn't new. I also seem to recall an issue with getting a decent web browser recently? "For a os with only a few contributors doing work on their freetime, I think it is going great " Oh definitely, I bear no ill will, and would like the project to succeed. But can you make a full featured desktop OS in your free time. There's another comment on this thread pointing out the spec is 600 pages long. I can understand how if you're doing it as a hobby that would take time. If someone built a car in their garage I'd be impressed. It may have taken 10 years, look ugly and leak oil but its still an achievement. I wouldn't buy it though, I don't want a car that leaks oil, and doesn't have crumple zones etc. I guess what I'm (slowly) stumbling towards asking is, is this a hobby OS or a 'big professional' OS? Reading between the lines you seem to be happy with a hobby OS, if so great, but that isn't what I want, I'm not sure that is what it was hyped to be.
  - kgraves 8y ago
    > USB 3 support seems.. Basic at this point? I think you underestimate the sophisticated complex problems of USB 3. Even for a hobby OS this is a massive achievement.
    - benj111 8y ago
      It is a massive achievement just like the home made car I mentioned. The car has to compete against Tesla, Ford, Toyota though, does it cut it? Does Haiku cut it against Linux, Windows, the BSDs? Maybe I have unreasonable expectations that it should. The car can exist for its own sake. The builder had fun making it after all. I thought the idea was that we were all going to be driving round in our own home made cars. So am I judging it on the engineering skill of the builder, as his hobby project? Or an I judging it as my next potential car? I can forgive that home built car not having crumple zones, radio, opening windows. They are hard to do, as a car buyer they are basic things I expect.
acqq 8y ago
To compare, Linux kernel had recently a significant problem by which a lot of the users of Ubuntu 18.04 LTS were affected. It was related to the use of the DPMS signaling, standard for which exists since 2003, if I understand correctly: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1813663 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1813663 Programming for real hardware is simply harder than the most can imagine.
LarryPage 8y ago
I have Haiku as sole OS on a Thinkpad, not my primary machine but some days I'll work the whole day on it no problem - it's a really enjoyable experience in fact.
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  Mr. Page, it's good to hear you like our work! Perhaps you could lend us some assistance in our world-domination goals...? ;)
  - jacobush 8y ago
    I haven't tried, and I won't at least for a few months. But I looked at the list of installed apps, and I couldn't find a calendaring (iCal) app. If that exists, I and many others I think, could use Haiku "for real". Realistically, I only need a terminal and SSH (check) a web browser (check), email (check) and something with iCal. Since many organizing solutions (such as Todoist - no affilition, I just use it) has iCal integration, iCal gives you a way to integrate and sync with your phone, be it iOS or Android. So if I had all that, I could use Haiku as my home/hobby tinkering machine. I would still need a Mac, Linux or Windows machine to do some other heavy lifting, but I already have three computers at home, so no problem.
    - waddlesplash 8y ago
      There's a relatively sophisticated Calendar app already, indeed: https://github.com/HaikuArchives/Calendar/ https://github.com/HaikuArchives/Calendar/ It had working Google Calendar sync at one point, dunno if it still is. It could definitely use some work, though.
agildehaus 8y ago
Responding to your edit: I downvoted you because your comment was not constructive and basically was just chastising a project composed entirely of a few geographically-separated volunteers. It's very honestly amazing what they've accomplished.
- benj111 8y ago
  Wasn't intended to chastise them at all. Yes it is amazing what they've accomplished. I was mourning the fact that despite all the mind share, all the talented developers, they didn't manage to produce an OS that just works (tm). I'm cognizant of the fact Linus Torvalds started out very in similar circumstances. I don't know if it is Linux taking too much air out of the room, or if in 2019, building the OS that just works (tm) is just too bigger job for volunteers. That is the shame.
  - jnbiche 8y ago
    A modern os is vastly more complex than what Linus was working with in the early 1990s. Recall that the web had just been invented at that point.
    - hedora 8y ago
      I’m not sure I buy this. X86 hardware diversity exploded shortly after Linux took off, which gave more popular operating systems a huge incumbent advantage. However, now that Moore’s law has petered out, you can target Intel’s current mainstream SoC, and you have a bootable product. Hopefully this translates into more competition in the operating system kernel space.
      - zapzupnz 8y ago
        I'm not sure I see the link between your comment and the one to which you're replying. GP is saying that the expected components that make up a modern operating system, including things that might be seen to be 'trivial' such as full USB 3.0+ support; a full, robust networking stack; the sorts of security and protections against modern methods of attack from bad actors; all on top of modern, efficient, and possibly even forward-thinking APIs that make developing for the OS efficient and even a joy for developers — these things are neither trivial, easy, or quick to do. Whereas you're talking about just hardware, which is not even close to the whole story when it comes to an OS in 2019.
ketralnis 8y ago
If your "assessment" is based on the title of a blog post and some opinions you have about their download page... do we really need your assessment? It's a volunteer project. If you want it to do better, help. If you don't or don't care, why comment on it? Who are you helping? What is your commentary improving?
- benj111 8y ago
  Lots of commentary doesn't improve anything. What has all the discussion on HN today improved or helped? If you don't wish to be reading other peoples assessments then you've come to the wrong place. If you think I'm wrong, please correct me. I've put my opinion and reasons why.

hakfoo 8y ago

I suspect their work optimizes around a relatively narrow band of supported hardware. The Beta 1 release, when I tried it on my Ryzen-based desktop, wouldn't get past the splash screen, stalling out at things that seemed to revolve around the SATA controller. Meanwhile, pop the same flash drive in a Thinkpad X230t, and it booted and installed fine, and even Wi-Fi worked without a significant hitch.

waddlesplash 8y ago
> The Beta 1 release, when I tried it on my Ryzen-based desktop, wouldn't get past the splash screen, stalling out at things that seemed to revolve around the SATA controller. Did any icons light up? There was (is) an undiagnosed issue that is preventing BIOS booting from working on Ryzen. I know one of the other devs runs Haiku on his Ryzen via EFI and says it works like a charm. > I suspect their work optimizes around a relatively narrow band of supported hardware. Not by design, but just by circumstance -- we developers optimize for the hardware we have and use, and not many others tend to submit patches, so that's the way it goes.

puppetmaster 8y ago

I've been using haiku as my main work os for a couple of months now. Granted, there are issues, but none of them too annoying to prevent me from getting things done... except for xhci. It would seem like this specification has been a pain point for many other projects before. For a os with only a few contributors doing work on their freetime, I think it is going great. (My opinion, like mouths... everybody has one)

benj111 8y ago
USB 3 support seems.. Basic at this point? The post mentions 2012 when chips became prevalent so this isn't new. I also seem to recall an issue with getting a decent web browser recently? "For a os with only a few contributors doing work on their freetime, I think it is going great " Oh definitely, I bear no ill will, and would like the project to succeed. But can you make a full featured desktop OS in your free time. There's another comment on this thread pointing out the spec is 600 pages long. I can understand how if you're doing it as a hobby that would take time. If someone built a car in their garage I'd be impressed. It may have taken 10 years, look ugly and leak oil but its still an achievement. I wouldn't buy it though, I don't want a car that leaks oil, and doesn't have crumple zones etc. I guess what I'm (slowly) stumbling towards asking is, is this a hobby OS or a 'big professional' OS? Reading between the lines you seem to be happy with a hobby OS, if so great, but that isn't what I want, I'm not sure that is what it was hyped to be.
- kgraves 8y ago
  > USB 3 support seems.. Basic at this point? I think you underestimate the sophisticated complex problems of USB 3. Even for a hobby OS this is a massive achievement.
  - benj111 8y ago
    It is a massive achievement just like the home made car I mentioned. The car has to compete against Tesla, Ford, Toyota though, does it cut it? Does Haiku cut it against Linux, Windows, the BSDs? Maybe I have unreasonable expectations that it should. The car can exist for its own sake. The builder had fun making it after all. I thought the idea was that we were all going to be driving round in our own home made cars. So am I judging it on the engineering skill of the builder, as his hobby project? Or an I judging it as my next potential car? I can forgive that home built car not having crumple zones, radio, opening windows. They are hard to do, as a car buyer they are basic things I expect.

acqq 8y ago

To compare, Linux kernel had recently a significant problem by which a lot of the users of Ubuntu 18.04 LTS were affected. It was related to the use of the DPMS signaling, standard for which exists since 2003, if I understand correctly: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1813663 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1813663 Programming for real hardware is simply harder than the most can imagine.

LarryPage 8y ago

I have Haiku as sole OS on a Thinkpad, not my primary machine but some days I'll work the whole day on it no problem - it's a really enjoyable experience in fact.

waddlesplash 8y ago
Mr. Page, it's good to hear you like our work! Perhaps you could lend us some assistance in our world-domination goals...? ;)
- jacobush 8y ago
  I haven't tried, and I won't at least for a few months. But I looked at the list of installed apps, and I couldn't find a calendaring (iCal) app. If that exists, I and many others I think, could use Haiku "for real". Realistically, I only need a terminal and SSH (check) a web browser (check), email (check) and something with iCal. Since many organizing solutions (such as Todoist - no affilition, I just use it) has iCal integration, iCal gives you a way to integrate and sync with your phone, be it iOS or Android. So if I had all that, I could use Haiku as my home/hobby tinkering machine. I would still need a Mac, Linux or Windows machine to do some other heavy lifting, but I already have three computers at home, so no problem.
  - waddlesplash 8y ago
    There's a relatively sophisticated Calendar app already, indeed: https://github.com/HaikuArchives/Calendar/ https://github.com/HaikuArchives/Calendar/ It had working Google Calendar sync at one point, dunno if it still is. It could definitely use some work, though.

agildehaus 8y ago

Responding to your edit: I downvoted you because your comment was not constructive and basically was just chastising a project composed entirely of a few geographically-separated volunteers. It's very honestly amazing what they've accomplished.

benj111 8y ago
Wasn't intended to chastise them at all. Yes it is amazing what they've accomplished. I was mourning the fact that despite all the mind share, all the talented developers, they didn't manage to produce an OS that just works (tm). I'm cognizant of the fact Linus Torvalds started out very in similar circumstances. I don't know if it is Linux taking too much air out of the room, or if in 2019, building the OS that just works (tm) is just too bigger job for volunteers. That is the shame.
- jnbiche 8y ago
  A modern os is vastly more complex than what Linus was working with in the early 1990s. Recall that the web had just been invented at that point.
  - hedora 8y ago
    I’m not sure I buy this. X86 hardware diversity exploded shortly after Linux took off, which gave more popular operating systems a huge incumbent advantage. However, now that Moore’s law has petered out, you can target Intel’s current mainstream SoC, and you have a bootable product. Hopefully this translates into more competition in the operating system kernel space.
    - zapzupnz 8y ago
      I'm not sure I see the link between your comment and the one to which you're replying. GP is saying that the expected components that make up a modern operating system, including things that might be seen to be 'trivial' such as full USB 3.0+ support; a full, robust networking stack; the sorts of security and protections against modern methods of attack from bad actors; all on top of modern, efficient, and possibly even forward-thinking APIs that make developing for the OS efficient and even a joy for developers — these things are neither trivial, easy, or quick to do. Whereas you're talking about just hardware, which is not even close to the whole story when it comes to an OS in 2019.

ketralnis 8y ago

If your "assessment" is based on the title of a blog post and some opinions you have about their download page... do we really need your assessment? It's a volunteer project. If you want it to do better, help. If you don't or don't care, why comment on it? Who are you helping? What is your commentary improving?

benj111 8y ago
Lots of commentary doesn't improve anything. What has all the discussion on HN today improved or helped? If you don't wish to be reading other peoples assessments then you've come to the wrong place. If you think I'm wrong, please correct me. I've put my opinion and reasons why.