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> It is ironic that Li Keqiang is premiere (#2) but Xi Jinping has decided not to use his index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Keqiang_index https://en.wikip

> It is ironic that Li Keqiang is premiere (#2) but Xi Jinping has decided not to use his index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Keqiang_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Keqiang_index) that gets around fudging with more accurate statistics. Li Keqiang Index has three components, electricity consumption, railway cargo volume and bank loans. They all had pretty good growth, e.g. https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-12-06/china-railway-corp-signals-sustained-growth-ahead-101356386.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-12-06/china-railway-corp-s... https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-01-30/chart-of-the-day-chinese-electricity-consumption-growth-hits-6-year-high-101376236.html https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-01-30/chart-of-the-day-chi... People need to be realistic, China's current GDP per capita is lower than world's average, it is an extremely poor country totally under developed. With the largest domestic market and hard working population, how hard will it be to grow at 6-7% to catch up with some in the middle of nowhere countries with $20k USD GDP per capita?

ksec 8y ago
I am not sure why you are downvoted, agree with much of it, sort of disagree with > how hard will it be to grow at 6-7% to catch up with some in the middle of nowhere countries with $20k USD GDP per capita? It seems people are now downvoting comments they don't like. You may not like the above comment, but it is hard to argue against it as they are facts. This to me, is a much bigger problem on HN right now. The quality of discussion ( especially anything to do with China ) is dropping.
- learc83 8y ago
  >It seems people are now downvoting comments they don't like. This isn't new. It's been part of HN since the beginning. pg said this a decade ago. >I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness. Maybe he or the current mods have changed their minds since then or maybe they haven't, but it's been part of the culture here from the start. >You may not like the above comment, but it is hard to argue against it as they are facts. I didn't personally downvote it, but I don't think people who did are necessarily arguing with facts. Parts of the comment were facts, and parts were conjecture. Downvoting the comment because you disagree with the conjecture seems reasonable to me.
  - threatofrain 8y ago
    I think the best reason to downvote or upvote is because you think it will improve the community or conversation. Why and how that vote leads to a result is up to you to theorize. It may be that if you personally upvote strong comments, you aren't doing anything interesting because you're promoting an already strong predictor, something which the community has no trouble detecting.
    - Theodores 8y ago
      Gentle reminder - all of the above comments are against the guidelines - a.k.a. the house rules. I have learned this the hard way by being flagged on China related topics. We aren't here for a flame-war or to even mention the word 'downvoted'. I am personally of the opinion that China are way ahead of us and that there is a tide of lazy views relating to our hard working, highly educated Chinese friends. Fun fact: the Iron Age came to China 2000 years before we think the Iron Age happened. Hence my suggestion. Rather than take the bait or think you can make a reasoned comment in response to something ignorant, use the 'flag' button. If it breaks the house rules, flag it and it goes. In this way we can hopefully improve discourse regarding anything China related.
- StreamBright 8y ago
  Not only that, but people tend to downvote anything that challenges the status quo about states, governments and anything outside of the Western world.
ido 8y ago
China is huge and heterogeneous - the coastal cities are well developed and there are 100s of millions of people living in Shanghai, Beijing, Hong-Kong, Shenzhen etc who are well on their way towards western level of development. For example the Yangtze River Delta has more than 100m people (more than any European country) and GPD(PPP) per capita similar to Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_River_Delta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_River_Delta
- matthewrudy 8y ago
  > Millions of people living in ... Hong Kong... who are well on their way towards western level of development Hong Kong is a developed country. It has a public housing system, a public healthcare system, and amazing transport. It has massive issues with income equality, and particular poverty in old age. However, it doesn't belong in a comparison beside cities in China.
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    > public housing system, a public healthcare system These are the sign of a developed country?
    - matthewrudy 8y ago
      They're secondary points relating to quality of life and social security that distinguish Hong Kong from China.
      - StreamBright 8y ago
        Well in most Asian cultures taking care of your relatives and elderly is primarily done by the family. Offloading this duty to the state is not a sign of development but a sign of different culture. There are well regarded measures of human development, like the HDI. "The Human Development Index (HDI) is a statistic composite index of life expectancy, education, and per capita income indicators, which are used to rank countries into four tiers of human development. A country scores a higher HDI when the lifespan is higher, the education level is higher, and the GNI (PPP) per capita is higher. It was developed by Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq, with help from Gustav Ranis of Yale University and Lord Meghnad Desai of the London School of Economics, and was further used to measure a country's development by the United Nations Development Program (UNDP)'s Human Development Report Office" According to Wikipedia China has a HDI of 0.752 which is considered high, 86th position on the list of countries. Hong Kong also has high HDI, 0.933, very high, 7th position. This comparison is much better than trying to come up with an arbitrary measure.
ksec 8y ago
And here is an article about Debt in China. [1] While you can bet those number aren't 100% accurate, you can see the overall picture isn't so bad. Unless they are off by an order of magnitude, which I seriously doubt that will be the case. This doesn't mean I am pro China in anything. Just stating some alternative views. I just wish they open up their market and level up the playing field for foreign companies. [1] https://viewfromthewilds.blogspot.com/2019/03/v-behaviorurldefaultvmlo.html https://viewfromthewilds.blogspot.com/2019/03/v-behaviorurld...

ksec 8y ago

I am not sure why you are downvoted, agree with much of it, sort of disagree with > how hard will it be to grow at 6-7% to catch up with some in the middle of nowhere countries with $20k USD GDP per capita? It seems people are now downvoting comments they don't like. You may not like the above comment, but it is hard to argue against it as they are facts. This to me, is a much bigger problem on HN right now. The quality of discussion ( especially anything to do with China ) is dropping.

learc83 8y ago
>It seems people are now downvoting comments they don't like. This isn't new. It's been part of HN since the beginning. pg said this a decade ago. >I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness. Maybe he or the current mods have changed their minds since then or maybe they haven't, but it's been part of the culture here from the start. >You may not like the above comment, but it is hard to argue against it as they are facts. I didn't personally downvote it, but I don't think people who did are necessarily arguing with facts. Parts of the comment were facts, and parts were conjecture. Downvoting the comment because you disagree with the conjecture seems reasonable to me.
- threatofrain 8y ago
  I think the best reason to downvote or upvote is because you think it will improve the community or conversation. Why and how that vote leads to a result is up to you to theorize. It may be that if you personally upvote strong comments, you aren't doing anything interesting because you're promoting an already strong predictor, something which the community has no trouble detecting.
  - Theodores 8y ago
    Gentle reminder - all of the above comments are against the guidelines - a.k.a. the house rules. I have learned this the hard way by being flagged on China related topics. We aren't here for a flame-war or to even mention the word 'downvoted'. I am personally of the opinion that China are way ahead of us and that there is a tide of lazy views relating to our hard working, highly educated Chinese friends. Fun fact: the Iron Age came to China 2000 years before we think the Iron Age happened. Hence my suggestion. Rather than take the bait or think you can make a reasoned comment in response to something ignorant, use the 'flag' button. If it breaks the house rules, flag it and it goes. In this way we can hopefully improve discourse regarding anything China related.
StreamBright 8y ago
Not only that, but people tend to downvote anything that challenges the status quo about states, governments and anything outside of the Western world.

ido 8y ago

China is huge and heterogeneous - the coastal cities are well developed and there are 100s of millions of people living in Shanghai, Beijing, Hong-Kong, Shenzhen etc who are well on their way towards western level of development. For example the Yangtze River Delta has more than 100m people (more than any European country) and GPD(PPP) per capita similar to Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_River_Delta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangtze_River_Delta

matthewrudy 8y ago
> Millions of people living in ... Hong Kong... who are well on their way towards western level of development Hong Kong is a developed country. It has a public housing system, a public healthcare system, and amazing transport. It has massive issues with income equality, and particular poverty in old age. However, it doesn't belong in a comparison beside cities in China.
- StreamBright 8y ago
  > public housing system, a public healthcare system These are the sign of a developed country?
  - matthewrudy 8y ago
    They're secondary points relating to quality of life and social security that distinguish Hong Kong from China.
    - StreamBright 8y ago
      Well in most Asian cultures taking care of your relatives and elderly is primarily done by the family. Offloading this duty to the state is not a sign of development but a sign of different culture. There are well regarded measures of human development, like the HDI. "The Human Development Index (HDI) is a statistic composite index of life expectancy, education, and per capita income indicators, which are used to rank countries into four tiers of human development. A country scores a higher HDI when the lifespan is higher, the education level is higher, and the GNI (PPP) per capita is higher. It was developed by Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq, with help from Gustav Ranis of Yale University and Lord Meghnad Desai of the London School of Economics, and was further used to measure a country's development by the United Nations Development Program (UNDP)'s Human Development Report Office" According to Wikipedia China has a HDI of 0.752 which is considered high, 86th position on the list of countries. Hong Kong also has high HDI, 0.933, very high, 7th position. This comparison is much better than trying to come up with an arbitrary measure.

ksec 8y ago

And here is an article about Debt in China. [1] While you can bet those number aren't 100% accurate, you can see the overall picture isn't so bad. Unless they are off by an order of magnitude, which I seriously doubt that will be the case. This doesn't mean I am pro China in anything. Just stating some alternative views. I just wish they open up their market and level up the playing field for foreign companies. [1] https://viewfromthewilds.blogspot.com/2019/03/v-behaviorurldefaultvmlo.html https://viewfromthewilds.blogspot.com/2019/03/v-behaviorurld...