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>Or the Tennessee couple who want to get pregnant, but whose insurance doesn’t cover the $20,000 worth of “medications, surgeries, scans, lab monitoring, and ap

>Or the Tennessee couple who want to get pregnant, but whose insurance doesn’t cover the $20,000 worth of “medications, surgeries, scans, lab monitoring, and appointments [that] will need to be paid for upfront and out-of-pocket” for in vitro fertilization. Would an ideal healthcare system cover in vitro for anyone, full stop? Took a buzz through the NHS requirements[0] and there are definitely restrictions. And in vitro is certainly not an uncontroversial procedure. I just thought that was a strange example to use. There are always going to be gaps in what a health system will cover, right? There's always gonna be a market for crowdfunding health stuff, and that's not inherently a bad thing. (Which is my only point, not trying to comment on the broader issue.) [0]: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ivf/availability/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/ivf/availability/

solatic 8y ago
The Israeli system covers IVF with almost no restrictions, mostly around no longer funding IVF when it no longer makes medical sense. https://www.health.gov.il/English/Topics/fertility/Pages/ivf.aspx https://www.health.gov.il/English/Topics/fertility/Pages/ivf...
- avip 8y ago
  True. And abortions are also covered, you just need to pass the pregnancy termination committee.
Aloha 8y ago
From my perspective, it shouldn't. Yes, its cold and heartless to say so, but wanting children isn't a health issue.
- fastball 8y ago
  Could you not argue that it is a mental health issue?
  - thanatos_dem 8y ago
    I feel like people go more crazy as a result of having kids than as a result of not having them.
    - silencio 8y ago
      Speaking as someone with infertility working on kid #2 via IVF right now, nothing positive comes out of wanting kids but not being able to have them. (Also with the big disclaimer that adopting children costs just as much if not more, in some way or another...) There's parent nights out and dates with my partner to rant about toddlers being shits that are nice to have, but my fertility clinic has an MFT on staff and my old fertility clinic had referrals out for therapy and support groups facilitated by therapists. After almost 18 months the first time, too, I worked out a lot of depression and anger through 1:1 therapy weekly for months. I'm heavily relying on those old coping mechanisms, this time around. Just. does. not. compare.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  I'm not sure I agree. I don't want kids myself, so it would be easy for me to say it isn't important to a meaningful life, but it is a significant biological drive and, in a way, denying someone the ability to bear children is condemning them to a form of death.
  - acpetrov 8y ago
    Should an infertile couple have a right to a surrogate mother
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      It's a little annoying that it is so impossible to argue that maybe we should consider an issue more deeply without being pegged to an extreme opposite of the consensus.
- anoncake 8y ago
  Not being able to have children is clearly a health issue.
  - Aloha 8y ago
    How so? Some percentage of everything on the planet is infertile and cannot reproduce, thats just the nature of genetics - why should humans get a very expensive special exception? its not as if we have a shortage of people having babies, or a shortage of kids needing a home either. I don't think you have a fundamental right propagate your genetic material.
    - anoncake 8y ago
      This is a ridiculous question and you know it.
1123581321 8y ago
Agreed. Were the US to adopt a system similar to the NHS, I would hope that electives like IVF would continue to not be covered. Presumably it was chosen because the number is more shocking than the typical $500-2,000 request to cover a deductible or the less kindly viewed request to cover living expenses during a medical situation.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  [deleted]
  - 1123581321 8y ago
    That’s the same link as the one in the comment I replied to.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Missed it due to being cut off on mobile. My apologies.
- martin_bech 8y ago
  So poor people should not get kids?
dkashbfldls 8y ago
Health stuff, including IVF, should not be crowd funded. These are by definition universal problems that will be addressed most efficiently collectively. The question of what reproduction society should support is entirely distinct from that of getting health care for your reproduction.
- austhrow743 8y ago
  You can be perfectly healthy without IVF.
  - dkashbfldls 8y ago
    Not if your definition of health includes reproduction.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    Suicide is a complex phenomena and we should avoid simplistic explanations, but fertility problems are a trigger for some people.
Simon_says 8y ago
In my opinion, if you can't afford the $20k, you can't afford the kid. In my ideal healthcare system, you'd have to put up a bond to prove financial means before being allowed to have kids.
hippich 8y ago
It just happened that I had a paper discussing IVF vs IVM last week. There are some researches, inconclusive, that suggest that state-paid IVF/IVM is beneficial for the country, as a newly minted citizen on average will produce significantly more in the tax revenue than an original bill for the procedure, even if you consider 1/5 chance of success for such procedure. Obviously, it is not clear cut. At the very least likely there is an upper limit how many citizens country can support, but certainly, it is not a 100% undesirable for the state to fund such procedures.
silencio 8y ago
NHS coverage is a mixed bag. Other countries that offer full coverage of at least one cycle would be Sweden, France, and Belgium. A good like, half of Europe has some kind of at least partial public coverage of IVF. Compare to the US where only a dozen(ish) states have requirements that group insurers offer infertility coverage, and those dozen are all over the place. California doesn't require IVF coverage while Illinois does. If you buy a Marketplace plan, I guess... sucks to be you, zero coverage. Anyway, I will say that literally all of my reproductive health issues that were causing issues elsewhere in life were uncovered in the process of being diagnosed with infertility after literally 15 years of a dozen doctors that had no fucking clue, and that it's a big shame that not even that is covered for a lot of people in large parts of the US - which is a far cry from covering a $20k+ IVF cycle.
Waterluvian 8y ago
It's covered to an extent in Canada. It's something we are working on improving.

solatic 8y ago

The Israeli system covers IVF with almost no restrictions, mostly around no longer funding IVF when it no longer makes medical sense. https://www.health.gov.il/English/Topics/fertility/Pages/ivf.aspx https://www.health.gov.il/English/Topics/fertility/Pages/ivf...

avip 8y ago
True. And abortions are also covered, you just need to pass the pregnancy termination committee.

Aloha 8y ago

From my perspective, it shouldn't. Yes, its cold and heartless to say so, but wanting children isn't a health issue.

fastball 8y ago
Could you not argue that it is a mental health issue?
- thanatos_dem 8y ago
  I feel like people go more crazy as a result of having kids than as a result of not having them.
  - silencio 8y ago
    Speaking as someone with infertility working on kid #2 via IVF right now, nothing positive comes out of wanting kids but not being able to have them. (Also with the big disclaimer that adopting children costs just as much if not more, in some way or another...) There's parent nights out and dates with my partner to rant about toddlers being shits that are nice to have, but my fertility clinic has an MFT on staff and my old fertility clinic had referrals out for therapy and support groups facilitated by therapists. After almost 18 months the first time, too, I worked out a lot of depression and anger through 1:1 therapy weekly for months. I'm heavily relying on those old coping mechanisms, this time around. Just. does. not. compare.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
I'm not sure I agree. I don't want kids myself, so it would be easy for me to say it isn't important to a meaningful life, but it is a significant biological drive and, in a way, denying someone the ability to bear children is condemning them to a form of death.
- acpetrov 8y ago
  Should an infertile couple have a right to a surrogate mother
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    It's a little annoying that it is so impossible to argue that maybe we should consider an issue more deeply without being pegged to an extreme opposite of the consensus.
anoncake 8y ago
Not being able to have children is clearly a health issue.
- Aloha 8y ago
  How so? Some percentage of everything on the planet is infertile and cannot reproduce, thats just the nature of genetics - why should humans get a very expensive special exception? its not as if we have a shortage of people having babies, or a shortage of kids needing a home either. I don't think you have a fundamental right propagate your genetic material.
  - anoncake 8y ago
    This is a ridiculous question and you know it.

1123581321 8y ago

Agreed. Were the US to adopt a system similar to the NHS, I would hope that electives like IVF would continue to not be covered. Presumably it was chosen because the number is more shocking than the typical $500-2,000 request to cover a deductible or the less kindly viewed request to cover living expenses during a medical situation.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
[deleted]
- 1123581321 8y ago
  That’s the same link as the one in the comment I replied to.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Missed it due to being cut off on mobile. My apologies.
martin_bech 8y ago
So poor people should not get kids?

dkashbfldls 8y ago

Health stuff, including IVF, should not be crowd funded. These are by definition universal problems that will be addressed most efficiently collectively. The question of what reproduction society should support is entirely distinct from that of getting health care for your reproduction.

austhrow743 8y ago
You can be perfectly healthy without IVF.
- dkashbfldls 8y ago
  Not if your definition of health includes reproduction.
- DanBC 8y ago
  Suicide is a complex phenomena and we should avoid simplistic explanations, but fertility problems are a trigger for some people.

Simon_says 8y ago

In my opinion, if you can't afford the $20k, you can't afford the kid. In my ideal healthcare system, you'd have to put up a bond to prove financial means before being allowed to have kids.

hippich 8y ago

It just happened that I had a paper discussing IVF vs IVM last week. There are some researches, inconclusive, that suggest that state-paid IVF/IVM is beneficial for the country, as a newly minted citizen on average will produce significantly more in the tax revenue than an original bill for the procedure, even if you consider 1/5 chance of success for such procedure. Obviously, it is not clear cut. At the very least likely there is an upper limit how many citizens country can support, but certainly, it is not a 100% undesirable for the state to fund such procedures.

silencio 8y ago

NHS coverage is a mixed bag. Other countries that offer full coverage of at least one cycle would be Sweden, France, and Belgium. A good like, half of Europe has some kind of at least partial public coverage of IVF. Compare to the US where only a dozen(ish) states have requirements that group insurers offer infertility coverage, and those dozen are all over the place. California doesn't require IVF coverage while Illinois does. If you buy a Marketplace plan, I guess... sucks to be you, zero coverage. Anyway, I will say that literally all of my reproductive health issues that were causing issues elsewhere in life were uncovered in the process of being diagnosed with infertility after literally 15 years of a dozen doctors that had no fucking clue, and that it's a big shame that not even that is covered for a lot of people in large parts of the US - which is a far cry from covering a $20k+ IVF cycle.

Waterluvian 8y ago

It's covered to an extent in Canada. It's something we are working on improving.