4 ms·

Huh? I think you’re confused. A US citizen who happens to be of Croatian or Polish decent is still just a US citizen. If the EU does build a database of US cit

by erentz 8y ago

Huh? I think you’re confused. A US citizen who happens to be of Croatian or Polish decent is still just a US citizen. If the EU does build a database of US citizens’ lineage and then starts denying US citizens of Croatian descent entry not only would that be hugely ironic it would also cause a pretty emphatic response from the US. There is only one US country and only one US citizen. The argument people are making comparing EU countries to US states is absurd. They might as well be saying “Well what if the EU decided not to allow visa free entry to New Zealand citizens from the city of Auckland. Huzzah! Therefore US should treat all EU countries the same!” See how absurd that is? Because a US state has just as much control over immigration and foreign policy or national defense etc etc as does a New Zealand city, which is to say none.

Scoundreller 8y ago
> Huh? I think you’re confused. A US citizen who happens to be of Croatian or Polish decent is still just a US citizen. Many European countries automatically make people their citizens by lineage, not place of birth. Sometimes with little restriction by the paternal line. Being born in the US to Croatian parents will make you a citizen of both countries, no application required. Croatia may not know about it, but you'll still be doing something illegal if such a person applies for an ETIAS and answers "No" to the question about being an EU citizen (which will make you ineligible for an ETIAS). It would be even messier for them if they were born in Croatia and then immigrated to the US as a child. That's how the US and Canadian implementations work.
- logifail 8y ago
  > Many European countries automatically make people their citizens by lineage, not place of birth. Automatically? Source?
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    The general concept is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis Croatia: http://eudo-citizenship.eu/NationalDB/docs/CRO%20Law%20on%20Croatian%20Citizenship_consolidated%2028_10_2011_ENGLISH.pdf http://eudo-citizenship.eu/NationalDB/docs/CRO%20Law%20on%20... Section 4: "A child acquires Croatian citizenship by origin: [various criteria about who your parents are]" There's no "may" or "can". Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Descent_from_a_German_parent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Descent... "A person born of a parent with German citizenship at the time of the child's birth is a German citizen. Place of birth is not a factor in citizenship determination based on parentage." Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law#Attribution_of_citizenship_through_jus_sanguinis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law#Attrib... "Italian citizenship is granted by birth through the paternal line, with no limit on the number of generations, or through the maternal line for individuals born after 1 January 1948." France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_citizenship_by_birth_abroad_to_at_least_one_French_citizen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_... "French citizenship by birth abroad to at least one French citizen The child (legitimate or natural) is French if at least one parent is French." Some countries (like France) require the birth to be registered, while others do not.
  - gikku 8y ago
    There are literally tens of millions of Americans that are Italian citizens, from their grandfather or great-grandfather, without knowing it.
  - masonic 8y ago
    There are also cases where a US-born may be eligible for other citizenship but must apply. (Ireland, for example, if either parent was Irish.)
- erentz 8y ago
  Wow. That sounds like a pretty crazy hole in the ETIAS plan, and your comment belongs more appropriately as a child of the original's in regard to the following: > - There is a separate dispute between EU and US, because US imposes visas on five EU states (Bulgaria, Croatia, Poland, Romania and Cyprus). According the EU law, all EU countries should be treated equally or otherwise reciprocal measures should apply. There have been calls within the EU to respond tit for tat and impose EU visas on US citizens, if the issue does not get resolved soon. So in the dispute above that is being hotly debated, Croatians (for example) want the EU to enforce visa free entry to the US as reciprocation for the visa free entry to the EU. But according to what you say, now US citizens who happen to be of Croatian descent don't have visa free entry to the EU and must get a Croatian passport.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    That's how I'm assuming how ETIAS will be implemented: you're usually not eligible for visa-free travel if you're already a citizen. In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name. But if it's the machine that's deciding these things based on the letter of the law, you might have a problem. Maybe ETIAS will have a bigger carve-out for these situations than the US and Canada (which exempt eachothers' citizens). Or maybe they won't.
    - ardy42 8y ago
      > In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name. Wouldn't that be an unreliable test, since you could've renounced your citizenship or have been born to Canadian parents visiting Italy, since Italy is jus sanguinis [1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law
      - Scoundreller 8y ago
        Correct, but the point was the border police never bothered to inquire. Even the US let’s you renounce your jus soli citizenship. Now you may have to state Yes/No to a question about other citizenships, when the best answer for a lot of Americans (a nation of immigrants) will be “Don’t know for sure, maybe”.

by erentz 8y ago

Scoundreller 8y ago

> Huh? I think you’re confused. A US citizen who happens to be of Croatian or Polish decent is still just a US citizen. Many European countries automatically make people their citizens by lineage, not place of birth. Sometimes with little restriction by the paternal line. Being born in the US to Croatian parents will make you a citizen of both countries, no application required. Croatia may not know about it, but you'll still be doing something illegal if such a person applies for an ETIAS and answers "No" to the question about being an EU citizen (which will make you ineligible for an ETIAS). It would be even messier for them if they were born in Croatia and then immigrated to the US as a child. That's how the US and Canadian implementations work.

logifail 8y ago
> Many European countries automatically make people their citizens by lineage, not place of birth. Automatically? Source?
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  The general concept is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis Croatia: http://eudo-citizenship.eu/NationalDB/docs/CRO%20Law%20on%20Croatian%20Citizenship_consolidated%2028_10_2011_ENGLISH.pdf http://eudo-citizenship.eu/NationalDB/docs/CRO%20Law%20on%20... Section 4: "A child acquires Croatian citizenship by origin: [various criteria about who your parents are]" There's no "may" or "can". Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Descent_from_a_German_parent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Descent... "A person born of a parent with German citizenship at the time of the child's birth is a German citizen. Place of birth is not a factor in citizenship determination based on parentage." Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law#Attribution_of_citizenship_through_jus_sanguinis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law#Attrib... "Italian citizenship is granted by birth through the paternal line, with no limit on the number of generations, or through the maternal line for individuals born after 1 January 1948." France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_citizenship_by_birth_abroad_to_at_least_one_French_citizen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_... "French citizenship by birth abroad to at least one French citizen The child (legitimate or natural) is French if at least one parent is French." Some countries (like France) require the birth to be registered, while others do not.
- gikku 8y ago
  There are literally tens of millions of Americans that are Italian citizens, from their grandfather or great-grandfather, without knowing it.
- masonic 8y ago
  There are also cases where a US-born may be eligible for other citizenship but must apply. (Ireland, for example, if either parent was Irish.)
erentz 8y ago
Wow. That sounds like a pretty crazy hole in the ETIAS plan, and your comment belongs more appropriately as a child of the original's in regard to the following: > - There is a separate dispute between EU and US, because US imposes visas on five EU states (Bulgaria, Croatia, Poland, Romania and Cyprus). According the EU law, all EU countries should be treated equally or otherwise reciprocal measures should apply. There have been calls within the EU to respond tit for tat and impose EU visas on US citizens, if the issue does not get resolved soon. So in the dispute above that is being hotly debated, Croatians (for example) want the EU to enforce visa free entry to the US as reciprocation for the visa free entry to the EU. But according to what you say, now US citizens who happen to be of Croatian descent don't have visa free entry to the EU and must get a Croatian passport.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  That's how I'm assuming how ETIAS will be implemented: you're usually not eligible for visa-free travel if you're already a citizen. In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name. But if it's the machine that's deciding these things based on the letter of the law, you might have a problem. Maybe ETIAS will have a bigger carve-out for these situations than the US and Canada (which exempt eachothers' citizens). Or maybe they won't.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > In the past, border police never really cared if you tried to enter EU on your Canadian passport, even if it says you were born in Italy with an obviously Italian name. Wouldn't that be an unreliable test, since you could've renounced your citizenship or have been born to Canadian parents visiting Italy, since Italy is jus sanguinis [1]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      Correct, but the point was the border police never bothered to inquire. Even the US let’s you renounce your jus soli citizenship. Now you may have to state Yes/No to a question about other citizenships, when the best answer for a lot of Americans (a nation of immigrants) will be “Don’t know for sure, maybe”.