5 ms·

As an EU citizen who wants for “EU countries should be treated equally”, you might want to start at home — Schengen doesn’t include (some of) the countries you

by zamfi 8y ago

As an EU citizen who wants for “EU countries should be treated equally”, you might want to start at home — Schengen doesn’t include (some of) the countries you listed and citizens of (some of) those countries don’t have the same work rights across the EU itself already. It feels like major hypocrisy to ask the US to treat nationals from those countries equally when the EU itself does not.

themech 8y ago
Afaik Poland is in Schengen and Polish citizens can travel/work freely in EU.
- kyriakos 8y ago
  Schengen or not anyone can travel freely and work anywhere in EU as long as they are EU citizens. I have a Cypriot passport and I can walk into any EU country as if its Cyprus and get a job.
bad_user 8y ago
Schengen isn’t EU. Part of it are 4 countries that are not in the EU and the 4 EU members that are not in Schengen are obliged to join it. Also any specific worker rights we don’t enjoy in the EU? I’m a Romanian so am interested in details.
JoelTheSuperior 8y ago
Regardless of whether Schengen applies free movement absolutely does.
renholder 8y ago
Despite the fact that the United States is not a Schengen participant, so that doesn't equate into their rationale for the visa process with those countries, the work that you say the EU should do (otherwise it's hypocrisy) is nigh complete[0,1,2]. The issue is that the United States has agreements with the EU and, much like when Trump tried to negotiate a trade deal with Germany[3], those deals supercede any deals that may have existed with member states in the past. This scenario, when reversed, would be akin to the EU having a deal with the United States but excluding Texas and requiring all Texans to officially apply for and receiving a visa before travel. Even though they're Americans and the deal with America should supercede, they would be - willfully - ignoring it. [0] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-schengen-standards-2018/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-sch... [1] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-qualify-join-schengen-area/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-quali... [2] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croatia-on-course-for-schengen-zone-entry-in-2020-government-official-idUSKCN1MQ1F2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croat... [3] - https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-eu-2017-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-e...
tapppi 8y ago
What are you even going on about? The Schengen is a separate system from the EU, which abolishes border control (passport control). That also necessitates common Visa Policy. The freedom of movement in the EU is the principal right to move between countries. The EU countries not part of Schengen Area still enjoy the same rights to freedom of movement, but there might be passport control. And this doesn't really matter anyway, since those countries are on the way to join Schengen Area within the next few years..
boudin 8y ago
Your counfounding European Union and Shengen area. Countries can be part of the Shengen Area without being in the European union (like Switzerland, Norway). Furthermore, Croatia, Cyprus and Bulgaria are in the process of joining the Shengen area. The visa issue is between the European Union and the United State, not the Shengen Area and the United States. It is like if European Union would require a Visa for inhabitants of Texas, Florida and Washington, even if a visa-free deal with the United States was agreed.
rmind 8y ago
Poland is in the Schengen Area. Cyprus is divided since Turkish invasion, so it is somewhat a special case. Other countries joined the EU relatively recently. However, all four countries are legally obliged to join the Schengen Area, they just have to fulfil certain requirements. Without going into all details.. don't you think it kind of makes sense? If you want to join an area without border controls, then for example you should first harmonise the rules on how you secure the external border, immigration control, customs control, etc. It is not as simple as you think. I do not think it is hyprocritial to require new EU member states to go through certain transition period. A bunch of other European countries went through that process too. At different speeds, but they made it. We are talking about contries; it's not the same as joining your local tennis club, it's a longer and more complex process. If there is anything to blame, then perhaps its your own government which is lagging behind on the necessary reforms. And meanwhile, EU is trying to make it easier for you to travel to the US. So, what are you complaining about?
- sgc 8y ago
  But doesn't it seem hypocritical to push for equal treatment externally when those requirements have not been met? EU processes like this one can take decades to iron out.
  - rmind 8y ago
    It might be a valid point to some extent, but there is an imporant aspect here: we are talking about _different_ requirements. Even though those four EU countries are not in the Schengen Area, their citizens can freely travel (without visa or any authorisation) anywhere in the EU. They just go through the border control. In other words, the requirements concerning the free travel are already met. Now, in the context of EU-US travel, do other (internal EU) requirements matter? I would argue that they don't.
    - sgc 8y ago
      It's not an irrelevant treaty. It is specifically the part of the EU agreement which regulates visas and travel in respect to non-EU countries (yes, I understand others have been allowed into it by reciprocal agreement, nonetheless it an EU directive). If a country can't yet be part of it or refuses to be part of it, why should they be treated as if they were? Free travel within the EU is the part that appears to be internal and not relevant in this case.

by zamfi 8y ago

themech 8y ago

Afaik Poland is in Schengen and Polish citizens can travel/work freely in EU.

kyriakos 8y ago
Schengen or not anyone can travel freely and work anywhere in EU as long as they are EU citizens. I have a Cypriot passport and I can walk into any EU country as if its Cyprus and get a job.

bad_user 8y ago

Schengen isn’t EU. Part of it are 4 countries that are not in the EU and the 4 EU members that are not in Schengen are obliged to join it. Also any specific worker rights we don’t enjoy in the EU? I’m a Romanian so am interested in details.

JoelTheSuperior 8y ago

Regardless of whether Schengen applies free movement absolutely does.

renholder 8y ago

Despite the fact that the United States is not a Schengen participant, so that doesn't equate into their rationale for the visa process with those countries, the work that you say the EU should do (otherwise it's hypocrisy) is nigh complete[0,1,2]. The issue is that the United States has agreements with the EU and, much like when Trump tried to negotiate a trade deal with Germany[3], those deals supercede any deals that may have existed with member states in the past. This scenario, when reversed, would be akin to the EU having a deal with the United States but excluding Texas and requiring all Texans to officially apply for and receiving a visa before travel. Even though they're Americans and the deal with America should supercede, they would be - willfully - ignoring it. [0] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-schengen-standards-2018/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-sch... [1] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-qualify-join-schengen-area/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-quali... [2] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croatia-on-course-for-schengen-zone-entry-in-2020-government-official-idUSKCN1MQ1F2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croat... [3] - https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-eu-2017-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-e...

tapppi 8y ago

What are you even going on about? The Schengen is a separate system from the EU, which abolishes border control (passport control). That also necessitates common Visa Policy. The freedom of movement in the EU is the principal right to move between countries. The EU countries not part of Schengen Area still enjoy the same rights to freedom of movement, but there might be passport control. And this doesn't really matter anyway, since those countries are on the way to join Schengen Area within the next few years..

boudin 8y ago

Your counfounding European Union and Shengen area. Countries can be part of the Shengen Area without being in the European union (like Switzerland, Norway). Furthermore, Croatia, Cyprus and Bulgaria are in the process of joining the Shengen area. The visa issue is between the European Union and the United State, not the Shengen Area and the United States. It is like if European Union would require a Visa for inhabitants of Texas, Florida and Washington, even if a visa-free deal with the United States was agreed.

rmind 8y ago

Poland is in the Schengen Area. Cyprus is divided since Turkish invasion, so it is somewhat a special case. Other countries joined the EU relatively recently. However, all four countries are legally obliged to join the Schengen Area, they just have to fulfil certain requirements. Without going into all details.. don't you think it kind of makes sense? If you want to join an area without border controls, then for example you should first harmonise the rules on how you secure the external border, immigration control, customs control, etc. It is not as simple as you think. I do not think it is hyprocritial to require new EU member states to go through certain transition period. A bunch of other European countries went through that process too. At different speeds, but they made it. We are talking about contries; it's not the same as joining your local tennis club, it's a longer and more complex process. If there is anything to blame, then perhaps its your own government which is lagging behind on the necessary reforms. And meanwhile, EU is trying to make it easier for you to travel to the US. So, what are you complaining about?

sgc 8y ago
But doesn't it seem hypocritical to push for equal treatment externally when those requirements have not been met? EU processes like this one can take decades to iron out.
- rmind 8y ago
  It might be a valid point to some extent, but there is an imporant aspect here: we are talking about _different_ requirements. Even though those four EU countries are not in the Schengen Area, their citizens can freely travel (without visa or any authorisation) anywhere in the EU. They just go through the border control. In other words, the requirements concerning the free travel are already met. Now, in the context of EU-US travel, do other (internal EU) requirements matter? I would argue that they don't.
  - sgc 8y ago
    It's not an irrelevant treaty. It is specifically the part of the EU agreement which regulates visas and travel in respect to non-EU countries (yes, I understand others have been allowed into it by reciprocal agreement, nonetheless it an EU directive). If a country can't yet be part of it or refuses to be part of it, why should they be treated as if they were? Free travel within the EU is the part that appears to be internal and not relevant in this case.