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Every time I see an H-1B related thread comment like this will pop up. No, it cannot "be very easily solved" by sorting salaries. For example, what about other

Every time I see an H-1B related thread comment like this will pop up. No, it cannot "be very easily solved" by sorting salaries. For example, what about other industries who also need foreign talents? $100K might be top wage for some other industries but no where near the top in tech. Even in tech, how do you expect small start-ups or small businesses to compete with giants like FAANG who can just throw money at the problem? Also, what about the cost of living factor? Is $200k in SV considered more competitive than $150k in some other rural area?

mabbo 8y ago
You make a lot of good points and I'm not saying I disagree on all of it. But many of these issues are orthogonal to the problem here. (Tech startups always have a problem of salary competition, which they fight via stock options; SV's problem is housing and local legislation that prevents sufficient supply; etc). The USA has, as a society, decided it wants to limit the number of immigrants. (I say this as a non-American who has had work visas in the US before, and left). If you disagree with that idea, vote for politicians who will change things. But if we take it as given that the number of immigrants on H-1B should be limited, then the question is: how do we decide who gets them? I contend that raising the salary minimum is better than lotteries. First, if you're going to limit the number of immigrants, you should be limiting it to the most talented rather than a random assortment of anyone at all that applies. Salary limits isn't a perfect fit for that, but it's a close approximation. Second, companies shouldn't be using immigration as a means to have cheap labor, given the laws around limited immigration. The H-1B isn't meant to be a means to lower the salary costs of a company, it's meant to bring the best talent to America. Lastly, in a lottery with limited winners, small companies will always lose out. Why? Because companies with less integrity can and will abuse the lottery system by inundating them with applications, often for job positions that could be easily filled by Americans. These companies want H-1B employees that they can underpay and abuse. Worth adding as well, if every H-1B holder is making $200k+, they're paying taxes on that huge salary too. This helps shut up those xenophobic types saying 'lazy immigrants don't pay their share'. My argument isn't that it's a fix-all for every problem. But given the premise of limited immigration, I think lotteries are a terrible solution companies to salary-based sorting.
- horyzen 8y ago
  I am all for raising minimum salary to rule out abusers, but my point is there are also a lot of other factors to consider here in addition to absolute salary number, and if you ignore those factors, it will be unfair to a lot of people & companies just as lottery is unfair to a lot of people & companies. This is a complicated problem and the solution has to be non-trivial. Both lottery and salary-sorting seems too trivial, and are therefore prune to cheating. For example, abusers can just pay their employee $200k but then charge them $100k "legal fees" for "immigration processing"? (I know some companies are already doing something similar)
  - tjpnz 8y ago
    Until then raising the minimum salary sounds like it will do significantly more good than harm.
- geebee 8y ago
  Why not just have immigration? Full and free citizens who have the right to pursue a job or career in response to personal interests and market signals? If people prefer to work a accountants in Cincinnati rather than devs in the valley, that’s the market’s answer. If people choose to drop out of stem PhD programs and open a crepe stand, that’s the markets answer. If being a PhD student we’re a better deal, the market might give a different answer. Why a program that allows corporations to determine the jobs immigrants are allowed to work and the circumstances under which they are allowed to live in the us, simply because they don’t like the market’s answer?
  - bradleyjg 8y ago
    We have programs like that. Are you suggesting adding 45,000 or so visas to the EB 2/3 categories and eliminating the H1B? You'd still have corporations driving the process as those visas require an employer-sponsor (albeit once the visa is actually granted the situation is closer to full and free situation than it is for H1Bs).
    - 8y ago
linuxftw 8y ago
> what about other industries who also need foreign talents They need to raise wages, obviously. > Even in tech, how do you expect small start-ups or small businesses to compete with giants like FAANG who can just throw money at the problem? How do you expect a small pizza chain to compete against Pizza Hut? Niche market, customer service, quality product. > Also, what about the cost of living factor I agree. $200k is not high enough. Should be $400k. Let big corporations put their money where their mouths are, we'll see just how much of that 'top talent' is really coming here, and how much is just low-wage immigration labor.
bradleyjg 8y ago
> For example, what about other industries who also need foreign talents? $100K might be top wage for some other industries but no where near the top in tech. Need is a funny word. If google "needs" a programmer and is willing to pay $250k/year to fulfill this need and Pierre's Bistro "needs" a chef but is only willing to pay $80k/year to fulfill this need--what can we say about the relative strength of these needs and the value that enabling them to be met will create?
TuringNYC 8y ago
The real solution is a reverse auction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_auction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_auction Economics has volumes on different auction methods and how they solve different problems.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  The real solution is not to have a problem at all, just no cap.
  - naniwaduni 8y ago
    Defining away your requirements only works if you're not accountable to them.
    - conanbatt 8y ago
      Accountable to whom? Who would even care if the us got more professionals?
  - ycombonator 8y ago
    Sure lift the flood gates and allow millions of free flowing labor until the wages get destroyed.
    - orthoxerox 8y ago
      Equalized, not destroyed.
TheCoelacanth 8y ago
How badly does an industry "need" foreign talent if they aren't even willing to pay as much as for a mediocre software developer? Wages are set by supply and demand. If they actually needed the foreign talent, they would be willing to pay more, but their needs are served adequately by domestic talent.

mabbo 8y ago

You make a lot of good points and I'm not saying I disagree on all of it. But many of these issues are orthogonal to the problem here. (Tech startups always have a problem of salary competition, which they fight via stock options; SV's problem is housing and local legislation that prevents sufficient supply; etc). The USA has, as a society, decided it wants to limit the number of immigrants. (I say this as a non-American who has had work visas in the US before, and left). If you disagree with that idea, vote for politicians who will change things. But if we take it as given that the number of immigrants on H-1B should be limited, then the question is: how do we decide who gets them? I contend that raising the salary minimum is better than lotteries. First, if you're going to limit the number of immigrants, you should be limiting it to the most talented rather than a random assortment of anyone at all that applies. Salary limits isn't a perfect fit for that, but it's a close approximation. Second, companies shouldn't be using immigration as a means to have cheap labor, given the laws around limited immigration. The H-1B isn't meant to be a means to lower the salary costs of a company, it's meant to bring the best talent to America. Lastly, in a lottery with limited winners, small companies will always lose out. Why? Because companies with less integrity can and will abuse the lottery system by inundating them with applications, often for job positions that could be easily filled by Americans. These companies want H-1B employees that they can underpay and abuse. Worth adding as well, if every H-1B holder is making $200k+, they're paying taxes on that huge salary too. This helps shut up those xenophobic types saying 'lazy immigrants don't pay their share'. My argument isn't that it's a fix-all for every problem. But given the premise of limited immigration, I think lotteries are a terrible solution companies to salary-based sorting.

horyzen 8y ago
I am all for raising minimum salary to rule out abusers, but my point is there are also a lot of other factors to consider here in addition to absolute salary number, and if you ignore those factors, it will be unfair to a lot of people & companies just as lottery is unfair to a lot of people & companies. This is a complicated problem and the solution has to be non-trivial. Both lottery and salary-sorting seems too trivial, and are therefore prune to cheating. For example, abusers can just pay their employee $200k but then charge them $100k "legal fees" for "immigration processing"? (I know some companies are already doing something similar)
- tjpnz 8y ago
  Until then raising the minimum salary sounds like it will do significantly more good than harm.
geebee 8y ago
Why not just have immigration? Full and free citizens who have the right to pursue a job or career in response to personal interests and market signals? If people prefer to work a accountants in Cincinnati rather than devs in the valley, that’s the market’s answer. If people choose to drop out of stem PhD programs and open a crepe stand, that’s the markets answer. If being a PhD student we’re a better deal, the market might give a different answer. Why a program that allows corporations to determine the jobs immigrants are allowed to work and the circumstances under which they are allowed to live in the us, simply because they don’t like the market’s answer?
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  We have programs like that. Are you suggesting adding 45,000 or so visas to the EB 2/3 categories and eliminating the H1B? You'd still have corporations driving the process as those visas require an employer-sponsor (albeit once the visa is actually granted the situation is closer to full and free situation than it is for H1Bs).
  - 8y ago

linuxftw 8y ago

> what about other industries who also need foreign talents They need to raise wages, obviously. > Even in tech, how do you expect small start-ups or small businesses to compete with giants like FAANG who can just throw money at the problem? How do you expect a small pizza chain to compete against Pizza Hut? Niche market, customer service, quality product. > Also, what about the cost of living factor I agree. $200k is not high enough. Should be $400k. Let big corporations put their money where their mouths are, we'll see just how much of that 'top talent' is really coming here, and how much is just low-wage immigration labor.

bradleyjg 8y ago

> For example, what about other industries who also need foreign talents? $100K might be top wage for some other industries but no where near the top in tech. Need is a funny word. If google "needs" a programmer and is willing to pay $250k/year to fulfill this need and Pierre's Bistro "needs" a chef but is only willing to pay $80k/year to fulfill this need--what can we say about the relative strength of these needs and the value that enabling them to be met will create?

TuringNYC 8y ago

The real solution is a reverse auction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_auction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_auction Economics has volumes on different auction methods and how they solve different problems.

conanbatt 8y ago
The real solution is not to have a problem at all, just no cap.
- naniwaduni 8y ago
  Defining away your requirements only works if you're not accountable to them.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    Accountable to whom? Who would even care if the us got more professionals?
- ycombonator 8y ago
  Sure lift the flood gates and allow millions of free flowing labor until the wages get destroyed.
  - orthoxerox 8y ago
    Equalized, not destroyed.

TheCoelacanth 8y ago

How badly does an industry "need" foreign talent if they aren't even willing to pay as much as for a mediocre software developer? Wages are set by supply and demand. If they actually needed the foreign talent, they would be willing to pay more, but their needs are served adequately by domestic talent.