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Cyber-espionage is a valid role, IMHO, but it should be separated from their defensive one. (Or the defensive role spun off into a different org altogether. I t

Cyber-espionage is a valid role, IMHO, but it should be separated from their defensive one. (Or the defensive role spun off into a different org altogether. I think there's just no other way way to manage the opposing incentives at work here.

Valmar 8y ago
> Cyber-espionage is a valid role Agreed, but the NSA doesn't seem to act like they care about defense, but wielding it only as a weapon. If they care about defense, I'd be interested to see any meaningful examples.
- scarmig 8y ago
  > If they care about defense, I'd be interested to see any meaningful examples. https://www.nsa.gov/News-Features/News-Stories/Article-View/Article/1775584/ghidra-the-software-reverse-engineering-tool-youve-been-waiting-for-is-here/ https://www.nsa.gov/News-Features/News-Stories/Article-View/... They do do things that meaningfully improve defense. It's just not emphasized or funded nearly enough.
- lern_too_spel 8y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_Suite_B_Cryptography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_Suite_B_Cryptography
scarmig 8y ago
I agree, provisionally. The NSA should play a variety of different roles (as it does!), and different parts of the organization should specialize in those roles. And some level of cyber-espionage is valid, though I think it's overemphasized. But improving IT security is less sexy than destroying adversaries' nuclear capabilities, and its easier to sell the (decidedly mixed) value of the latter stories than e.g. improving capabilities to identify and monitor foreign attackers.
x220 8y ago
"Valid role" is a meaningless term in the context of the NSA, which has broken the law for at least a decade with no consequences. The head of the NSA has lied to congress (which would put an ordinary man in prison). The NSA has spied and continues to spy on Americans in violation of several laws and court rulings. If the founding fathers were still alive, they'd be stacking bodies by now.
- mr_overalls 8y ago
  I mean that the conducting of signals intelligence against national adversaries is a useful/common mission for any country's intelligence agencies. There seems to be little doubt - as you point out - that the NSA has also abused their mandate a bit by spying on Americans.
  - x220 8y ago
    >the NSA has also abused their mandate a bit by spying on Americans The largest share of the data they collect is about Americans. This is done without legitimate, meaningful oversight or probable cause. Most of their measurable activity is illegal and violates the rights of Americans. The difference between data collection in the PRC and in the USA is that the USA hasn't extensively acted on this information against its own citizens so far. This overall tone and emphasis is similar to hand-waving away mass police brutality and oppression by saying "buuuuut they keep us safe".
    - NotAnEconomist 8y ago
      > The largest share of the data they collect is about Americans. Could you provide a citation on this? > Most of their measurable activity is illegal and violates the rights of Americans. This is a useless metric: it's true of both healthy and unhealthy spy agencies; the former because we wouldn't hear about the useful and legal things they do, only the occasional whistleblowing, while the latter because of the point you're trying to make. (I also disagree it's true.) However, without a solid metric on their total classified activity, there's no way to determine if it's unhealthy or healthy.

Valmar 8y ago

> Cyber-espionage is a valid role Agreed, but the NSA doesn't seem to act like they care about defense, but wielding it only as a weapon. If they care about defense, I'd be interested to see any meaningful examples.

scarmig 8y ago
> If they care about defense, I'd be interested to see any meaningful examples. https://www.nsa.gov/News-Features/News-Stories/Article-View/Article/1775584/ghidra-the-software-reverse-engineering-tool-youve-been-waiting-for-is-here/ https://www.nsa.gov/News-Features/News-Stories/Article-View/... They do do things that meaningfully improve defense. It's just not emphasized or funded nearly enough.
lern_too_spel 8y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_Suite_B_Cryptography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_Suite_B_Cryptography

scarmig 8y ago

I agree, provisionally. The NSA should play a variety of different roles (as it does!), and different parts of the organization should specialize in those roles. And some level of cyber-espionage is valid, though I think it's overemphasized. But improving IT security is less sexy than destroying adversaries' nuclear capabilities, and its easier to sell the (decidedly mixed) value of the latter stories than e.g. improving capabilities to identify and monitor foreign attackers.

x220 8y ago

"Valid role" is a meaningless term in the context of the NSA, which has broken the law for at least a decade with no consequences. The head of the NSA has lied to congress (which would put an ordinary man in prison). The NSA has spied and continues to spy on Americans in violation of several laws and court rulings. If the founding fathers were still alive, they'd be stacking bodies by now.

mr_overalls 8y ago
I mean that the conducting of signals intelligence against national adversaries is a useful/common mission for any country's intelligence agencies. There seems to be little doubt - as you point out - that the NSA has also abused their mandate a bit by spying on Americans.
- x220 8y ago
  >the NSA has also abused their mandate a bit by spying on Americans The largest share of the data they collect is about Americans. This is done without legitimate, meaningful oversight or probable cause. Most of their measurable activity is illegal and violates the rights of Americans. The difference between data collection in the PRC and in the USA is that the USA hasn't extensively acted on this information against its own citizens so far. This overall tone and emphasis is similar to hand-waving away mass police brutality and oppression by saying "buuuuut they keep us safe".
  - NotAnEconomist 8y ago
    > The largest share of the data they collect is about Americans. Could you provide a citation on this? > Most of their measurable activity is illegal and violates the rights of Americans. This is a useless metric: it's true of both healthy and unhealthy spy agencies; the former because we wouldn't hear about the useful and legal things they do, only the occasional whistleblowing, while the latter because of the point you're trying to make. (I also disagree it's true.) However, without a solid metric on their total classified activity, there's no way to determine if it's unhealthy or healthy.