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All of that because of a stupid survey in which the ones who wanted to abolish daylight saving time were overrepresented because it gave them a platform while t

All of that because of a stupid survey in which the ones who wanted to abolish daylight saving time were overrepresented because it gave them a platform while the majority who doesn't, didn't bother to make themselves heard. That's not quite Brexit-level but maybe Swiss immigration referendum-stupidity.

jackweirdy 8y ago
This proposal seems to be just making a mandatory time change not mandatory any more, and leaving it up to each nation state to decide - in the case of lots of split opinions isn’t that better?
bad_user 8y ago
Why do you think abolishing the daylight savings change is bad? Personally I think it’s a super awesome move. And note that no matter what you have against it, disrupting the sleep of billions of people twice per year has caused depression and cardiovascular issues which shouldn’t be taken lightly. So what’s the issue in everyone switching to the summer time for the whole year?
- mcjiggerlog 8y ago
  Because in the UK and Spain (the countries I have lived in) the sun would not rise until nearly 10am in winter. Lots of people think this change is a good idea simply because they assume they would stick to the time zone that they think is best. When the millions of people who want permanent summertime realise their government will most likely choose permanent winter time then it might not seem like such a great idea any more. This decision has been made way too fast and without proper investigation. Yes, there may be side effects of changing clocks twice per year, but how do they compare to the effects of having less light in the morning in winter or less light in the evening in summer?
  - bad_user 8y ago
    > Yes, there may be side effects of changing clocks twice per year, but how do they compare to the effects of having less light in the morning in winter or less light in the evening in summer? In think the effects you’re mentioning are insignificant compared with having your sleep schedule disrupted twice per year. People have literally died due to it. Getting rid of DST also simplifies business. Did you know that European countries do not switch at the same time as the US? Daylight saving times are a clusterfuck.
    - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
      > In think the effects you’re mentioning are insignificant compared with having your sleep schedule disrupted twice per year. People have literally died due to it. That's quite the claim to make. If changing the clocks has a negative effect, it last at most a few days. Getting the timezone wrong for the whole of winter / summer is an effect that lasts months.
      - bad_user 8y ago
        You're underestimating the effect. Do some reading on the body's circadian rhythm. Every cell in our body is tuned to it and disrupting it has serious consequences. You may not feel it because you're probably young and healthy. Give it another decade or two.
- C1sc0cat 8y ago
  It also helps reduce power usage and farmers also like the extra daylight for doing you know farmer things.
  - bad_user 8y ago
    Farmers that want to do "farmer things" can wake up earlier and they need to be in tune with their animals, following a circadian rhythm, so the clock on the wall rarely tells them when to wake up. The sun doesn't all of a sudden rise earlier or later. The timezone is important when collaborating with others. Does a farmer need to do business? Not sure how that fits in the farmer things they do, but when they do business they'll surely appreciate not having to search on Google for their freaking timezone when talking with a peer from another country.
    - C1sc0cat 8y ago
      You do know how powerful the farming lobby is in the US and EU - in the UK they pay no tax on Diesel for example. And the farming lobby is even stringer in France and Germany
Vinnl 8y ago
The survey was also primarily filled in by Germans. However, most regulation isn't the results of surveys in the first place. The survey might've informed it a bit, but in the end it's just lawmakers making law. It's not like there are absolutely no arguments in favour of this change, or that it's similar in scale to Brexit.
- _Microft 8y ago
  Not similar in scale but in nature. That is: asking a lot of ill-informed people for their opinion or vote (who are most likely absolutely oblivious which consequences that will entail). Check the case of the Swiss referendum: people got stirred up against immigration, voted against it, suddenly the freedom of movement agreement with the EU got jeopardized and thereby all of the other agreements which were linked by a so-called guillotine clause were in danger of being terminated. (The clause was exactly included to prevent cherry picking later).
  - Vinnl 8y ago
    I'm not familiar with the Swiss referendum, but Brexit was a case of asking a lot of ill-informed people for their vote and then blindly doing what they said. I don't think that was the case here; the survey just informed policy, rather than dictate it.
    - vixen99 8y ago
      You might at least say why you think your bald statement should carry weight. Plenty of intellectuals support Brexit. https://briefingsforbrexit.com/ https://briefingsforbrexit.com/. A lot of people understood Tony Benn's five questions about people in power. https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tony-benn-dead-five-questions-power-other-memorable-quotes-1440277 https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tony-benn-dead-five-questions-powe... "What power have you got? "Where did you get it from? "In whose interests do you use it? "To whom are you accountable? "How do we get rid of you?". Prior to the Brexit vote a lot of people had trouble squaring these vis a vis the EU - especially the last one. Indeed, this, not immigration (UK is already a highly diverse society) was a significant factor for many voters. Clearly you have no problem with Benn's questions but maybe you could avoid making gross generalizations regarding those who disagree. Benn's comment about that last question: "Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."
feketegy 8y ago
AFAIK every member state has to choose either daylight savings time or not, but it has to choose one and stick with it.
izacus 8y ago
DST has demonstrated negative health effects on humans and animals alike, so framing this as a caprice of preference is very misleading. Not to mention the, also confirmed, negative side effects on economy due to required technical investments and bugs involved in constant time changes. There's also nothing natural about it - it was enacted in wartime for now obsolete reasons.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  What about energy savings ? (genuinely curious)
  - izacus 8y ago
    According to Wiki, very small: A 2017 meta-analysis of 44 studies found that DST leads to electricity savings of only 0.34% during the days when DST applies.[81][82] The meta-analysis furthermore found that "electricity savings are larger for countries farther away from the equator, while subtropical regions consume more electricity because of DST."[81][82] This means that DST may conserve electricity in some countries, such as Canada and the United Kingdom, but be wasteful in other places, such as Mexico, the southern United States, and northern Africa. The savings in electricity may also be offset by extra use of other types of energy, such as heating fuel.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      Thanks a lot refilled paste A 2017 meta-analysis of 44 studies found that DST leads to electricity savings of only 0.34% during the days when DST applies.[81][82] The meta-analysis furthermore found that "electricity savings are larger for countries farther away from the equator, while subtropical regions consume more electricity because of DST."[81][82] This means that DST may conserve electricity in some countries, such as Canada and the United Kingdom, but be wasteful in other places, such as Mexico, the southern United States, and northern Africa. The savings in electricity may also be offset by extra use of other types of energy, such as heating fuel.

jackweirdy 8y ago

This proposal seems to be just making a mandatory time change not mandatory any more, and leaving it up to each nation state to decide - in the case of lots of split opinions isn’t that better?

bad_user 8y ago

Why do you think abolishing the daylight savings change is bad? Personally I think it’s a super awesome move. And note that no matter what you have against it, disrupting the sleep of billions of people twice per year has caused depression and cardiovascular issues which shouldn’t be taken lightly. So what’s the issue in everyone switching to the summer time for the whole year?

mcjiggerlog 8y ago
Because in the UK and Spain (the countries I have lived in) the sun would not rise until nearly 10am in winter. Lots of people think this change is a good idea simply because they assume they would stick to the time zone that they think is best. When the millions of people who want permanent summertime realise their government will most likely choose permanent winter time then it might not seem like such a great idea any more. This decision has been made way too fast and without proper investigation. Yes, there may be side effects of changing clocks twice per year, but how do they compare to the effects of having less light in the morning in winter or less light in the evening in summer?
- bad_user 8y ago
  > Yes, there may be side effects of changing clocks twice per year, but how do they compare to the effects of having less light in the morning in winter or less light in the evening in summer? In think the effects you’re mentioning are insignificant compared with having your sleep schedule disrupted twice per year. People have literally died due to it. Getting rid of DST also simplifies business. Did you know that European countries do not switch at the same time as the US? Daylight saving times are a clusterfuck.
  - mcjiggerlog 8y ago
    > In think the effects you’re mentioning are insignificant compared with having your sleep schedule disrupted twice per year. People have literally died due to it. That's quite the claim to make. If changing the clocks has a negative effect, it last at most a few days. Getting the timezone wrong for the whole of winter / summer is an effect that lasts months.
    - bad_user 8y ago
      You're underestimating the effect. Do some reading on the body's circadian rhythm. Every cell in our body is tuned to it and disrupting it has serious consequences. You may not feel it because you're probably young and healthy. Give it another decade or two.
C1sc0cat 8y ago
It also helps reduce power usage and farmers also like the extra daylight for doing you know farmer things.
- bad_user 8y ago
  Farmers that want to do "farmer things" can wake up earlier and they need to be in tune with their animals, following a circadian rhythm, so the clock on the wall rarely tells them when to wake up. The sun doesn't all of a sudden rise earlier or later. The timezone is important when collaborating with others. Does a farmer need to do business? Not sure how that fits in the farmer things they do, but when they do business they'll surely appreciate not having to search on Google for their freaking timezone when talking with a peer from another country.
  - C1sc0cat 8y ago
    You do know how powerful the farming lobby is in the US and EU - in the UK they pay no tax on Diesel for example. And the farming lobby is even stringer in France and Germany

Vinnl 8y ago

The survey was also primarily filled in by Germans. However, most regulation isn't the results of surveys in the first place. The survey might've informed it a bit, but in the end it's just lawmakers making law. It's not like there are absolutely no arguments in favour of this change, or that it's similar in scale to Brexit.

_Microft 8y ago
Not similar in scale but in nature. That is: asking a lot of ill-informed people for their opinion or vote (who are most likely absolutely oblivious which consequences that will entail). Check the case of the Swiss referendum: people got stirred up against immigration, voted against it, suddenly the freedom of movement agreement with the EU got jeopardized and thereby all of the other agreements which were linked by a so-called guillotine clause were in danger of being terminated. (The clause was exactly included to prevent cherry picking later).
- Vinnl 8y ago
  I'm not familiar with the Swiss referendum, but Brexit was a case of asking a lot of ill-informed people for their vote and then blindly doing what they said. I don't think that was the case here; the survey just informed policy, rather than dictate it.
  - vixen99 8y ago
    You might at least say why you think your bald statement should carry weight. Plenty of intellectuals support Brexit. https://briefingsforbrexit.com/ https://briefingsforbrexit.com/. A lot of people understood Tony Benn's five questions about people in power. https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tony-benn-dead-five-questions-power-other-memorable-quotes-1440277 https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tony-benn-dead-five-questions-powe... "What power have you got? "Where did you get it from? "In whose interests do you use it? "To whom are you accountable? "How do we get rid of you?". Prior to the Brexit vote a lot of people had trouble squaring these vis a vis the EU - especially the last one. Indeed, this, not immigration (UK is already a highly diverse society) was a significant factor for many voters. Clearly you have no problem with Benn's questions but maybe you could avoid making gross generalizations regarding those who disagree. Benn's comment about that last question: "Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system."

feketegy 8y ago

AFAIK every member state has to choose either daylight savings time or not, but it has to choose one and stick with it.

izacus 8y ago

DST has demonstrated negative health effects on humans and animals alike, so framing this as a caprice of preference is very misleading. Not to mention the, also confirmed, negative side effects on economy due to required technical investments and bugs involved in constant time changes. There's also nothing natural about it - it was enacted in wartime for now obsolete reasons.

agumonkey 8y ago
What about energy savings ? (genuinely curious)
- izacus 8y ago
  According to Wiki, very small: A 2017 meta-analysis of 44 studies found that DST leads to electricity savings of only 0.34% during the days when DST applies.[81][82] The meta-analysis furthermore found that "electricity savings are larger for countries farther away from the equator, while subtropical regions consume more electricity because of DST."[81][82] This means that DST may conserve electricity in some countries, such as Canada and the United Kingdom, but be wasteful in other places, such as Mexico, the southern United States, and northern Africa. The savings in electricity may also be offset by extra use of other types of energy, such as heating fuel.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    Thanks a lot refilled paste A 2017 meta-analysis of 44 studies found that DST leads to electricity savings of only 0.34% during the days when DST applies.[81][82] The meta-analysis furthermore found that "electricity savings are larger for countries farther away from the equator, while subtropical regions consume more electricity because of DST."[81][82] This means that DST may conserve electricity in some countries, such as Canada and the United Kingdom, but be wasteful in other places, such as Mexico, the southern United States, and northern Africa. The savings in electricity may also be offset by extra use of other types of energy, such as heating fuel.