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A backyard mechanic who is taking on Tesla
- jasoncartwright 8y agoThis chap is very impressive, and pretty crazy - spending tens (hundreds?) of thousands of $ on apparently unserviceable cars, then opening up the high voltage systems on them with no help from the manufacturer. His YouTube channel is here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago>spending tens (hundreds?) of thousands of $ on apparently unserviceable cars, then opening up the high voltage systems on them with no help from the manufacturer. Once you get to the level at which you're comfortable working on any one of the subsystems alone there's a snowball effect. Rebuilding a flooded car isn't fundamentally harder than any individual repair. It's just a bigger job. It's mostly a question of available resources (space and cash flow being the two most common bottlenecks) and motivation.
- jasoncartwright 8y agoFair point
- joncrane 8y ago>pending tens (hundreds?) of thousands of $ on apparently unserviceable cars If you read the article, his net cost for the one Tesla he drives was $6500. This is because he bought two junked cars for about $30k, assembled the one "Good" car out of the combined parts, then was able to resell the remaining duplicate good parts for the difference.
- gambiting 8y agoThat's great, but at the start he had no idea if he would ever and up with a working car or recoup any cost at all. I don't know how rich I'd need to be to bet $30k on a broken car.
- jgust 8y agoIt's a fine line between > bet $30k on a broken car and spending $30k on your "hobby". I think it's just a shift in mindset.
- jasoncartwright 8y agoIf you've been following him for a while on YouTube then you'd know he's bought more than just taking the risk on the two Teslas mentioned in the article, including a $70,000 Model X.
- agumonkey 8y agoThere's another guy that bought a chiped frame Audi TT and reworked it. It was a bit impressive, also his soldering + reinforcement didn't inspire confidence.
- ykevinator 8y agoNo need to disparage tree huggers, but this is a great story.
- LeonM 8y agoI'd strongly recommend checking out Rich's youtube channel (0). It's a great mix of humor, geeky details and good tesla-rant every now and then. Rich is currently running a crowdfunding campaign to start his own shop, which I am not to sure about. So far they have invested in wheel balancers and alignment equipment, which has nothing to do with EV's, that's just car maintenance. [0] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA
- touristtam 8y agoI agree: his channel is highly entertaining and quite a an eye opener on the state of the market.
- Theodores 8y agoParticularly the episode where 'Daisy' catches fire. This being some Disney themed car that is made of wood and came with lead acid batteries. The dramatic fire happens after the Tesla batteries go in. Luckily some quick thinking saved the day and no buildings were burned to the ground. Regarding his ambitions for a shop, I think that there is demand for the services of someone who knows the innards of the Tesla and happens to have a lot of spare parts. If a Tesla owner is going to have their car in repair for months and they have the choice of someone else having a look at it, to maybe fix it for less than what Tesla would charge then there is a niche there. The crowdfunding is also about publicity. Sadly banks don't invest in businesses as a general rule, hence the crowdfunding option beckons for many people who should be able to go to the bank with a business plan, borrow the money at today's low interest rates and pay it off. With crowdfunding you have to pay the funders something or be begging on a charitable basis. With the bank it should be a straightforward business proposition. Anyway, I wish Rich the best of success and his willingness to show incidents such as the fire.
- ForHackernews 8y agoThis guy is amazing. I love his Boston accent and his total DGAF attitude. A true hacker.
- userbinator 8y agoA Tesla representative, in a statement to the Globe, said “there are significant safety concerns when salvaged Teslas are repaired improperly or when Tesla parts are used outside of their original design intent, as these vehicles could pose a danger to both the mechanic and other drivers on the road.” It seems Tesla is deliberately ignoring or trying to squash the aftermarket/custom-car culture which has basically existed since cars existed... and in contrast, Chrysler/Ford/GM are happy to sell you parts like engines and transmissions without caring whether they'll even be used in a car, and have been doing so for literally decades, so obviously they're aware of and not worried about any legal liability issues.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago>It seems Tesla is deliberately ignoring or trying to squash the aftermarket/custom-car culture which has basically existed since cars existed... Plenty of people are willing to aid them. Go on Reddit and you'll find that it's impossible to have an adult discussion of repairs or modifications more involved than parts swapping without being drowned out by people screaming "hurr durr, muh public safety" or just down-voted into oblivion. You'll find no shortage of people willing to tell you that industry standard modifications (like lengthening truck frames), repairs (like welding cracks in steel wheels) or anything that modifies how a vehicle handles compared to stock configuration (like a lift kit on a Jeep) are fundamentally a danger to the public. Edit: I dunno why I was optimistic that HN would be any better.
- sacheendra 8y agoI don't know about other things, but using a lift kit is more dangerous to pedestrians that might be hit. This stems from pedestrians being hit closer to the center of their body as opposed to their legs.
- SilasX 8y agoThe people who raise up their cars also seem to never make the corresponding adjustments to the headlights, and end up blinding other drivers.
- atonse 8y agoLove his YouTube channel and also that we can see the innards of Teslas and how they work at such a detailed level.
- benguild 8y agoThere’s a great Motherboard episode about him: https://youtu.be/NuAMczraBIM https://youtu.be/NuAMczraBIM
- runemadsen 8y agoThis should be the top comment. Motherboard did all the research and work to show this guy to the world.
- willart4food 8y agoLOL. I Love this!
- Shivetya 8y agoI work for a major parts supplier; probably the most well known in America; and I am still very curious how the company will adapt to an EV future. Simple look at the components listing of an EV reveals that outside of the parts most cars share; suspension components, brakes components, some fluids, filters, lights, compressors (think HVAC), and frills, there is little in common among the brands that third party service centers can work on. I haven't seen really any commonality among packs or even motor designs. I am sure with sufficient volume the motors will eventually be a part that can be rebuilt, replaced, and such, but unless there is an industry move towards a standardized pack design its pretty much going to be full replacement and at the behest of the manufacturer. Owning a TM3 my only real fear is an accident that requires replacement parts. My auto insurance is slightly higher than normal as my agent stated its flagged as difficult to repair and costly. The cost factor includes length of rental reimbursement. People like to put EV adoption solely on range anxiety and some point to charging but long term it is also come down to ease of service and that must include choice of who does that.
- AlexMuir 8y agoI think the market will rise to meet the need for alternative to manufacturer parts. Look at the availability of iPhone spares, for example. Whole screen, touch digitiser, front camera : $20. That said, I think the automotive parts industry is an incredible achievement and I’m constantly blown away by the availability of stuff. Btw I run howacarworks.com and I’m working on a parts-based startup. I’d love to pick your brains. Drop me an email: alex@howacarworks.com.
- close04 8y ago> Whole screen, touch digitiser, front camera Usually cheap after market replacement parts in phones really act according to their price. I haven't seen a quality replacement part for these prices. Nothing close to the original anyway. As anecdata, every case I know where an iPhone screen was replaced with a cheap AM part it ended up being replaced again later with an official one. I'm not talking about Apple induced issues but problems with colors, banding, viewing angles, glare, touch response, thickness, etc. These are random articles I found while looking for pictures that highlight these issues [0] [1]. I'm sure this can very well extend to batteries or cameras. This may be acceptable for a phone (even in the $1000 range) but in a car it poses a genuine safety risk. Also it undermines the premise of the original expenditure with the car. If you invest $50.000 in a car you may have an incentive to not use a low quality battery pack for example. [0] https://discdepotstandrews.co.uk/copy-iphone-screens-vs-originals/ https://discdepotstandrews.co.uk/copy-iphone-screens-vs-orig... [1] https://www.hotshot.repair/mo/columbia/office-banter/lets-talk-about-the-difference-between-original-and-aftermarket-iphone-screens/ https://www.hotshot.repair/mo/columbia/office-banter/lets-ta...
- Spooky23 8y agoThis kind of bullshit is why I’m solidly in the “fuck Tesla” camp. The battles over auto repair and nonsense “safety” excuses were fought 100 years ago and shouldn’t need to be fought again, only in this dysfunctional era of American government is it possible for Tesla to even exist. Like any big company, they demonstrate every day why it’s so important to have independent service. As a company, they are too incompetent to run retail outlets, unable to supply spare parts for cars that are mostly unchanged year to to year, and unable to actually repair cars in the handful of service centers that exist. Hopefully the successor company that buys them out doesn’t go down this path.
- linuxftw 8y agoWorse yet, their latest announcement regarding shuttering retail stores also indicates that their solution to their service problem is to deploy a fleet of 'come to you' trucks. EG, they're going to want to dispatch and repair/replace components in your driveway or on the street, which is prohibited in many places.
- martin_a 8y agoI would expect that this is mostly limited to software-related problems or really small stuff (wipers and window washing fluid) and for everything else they will just tow your car away.
- linuxftw 8y agoTow it to where, precisely? Additionally, are you going to get a free loaner that pretty much every other major brand gives you for warranty work? If you break down on the side of the highway, what then? Where does the car get towed?
- martin_a 8y agoI don't know and frankly I'm not sure that Tesla does either yet. But what are they going to do? Carry around whole drivetrains in their "Service Car Model X" that comes to your house? Even if so, you need specialized equipment, hydraulic lifts etc. to repair things like that. So what will their options be if they do not have their own (service) shops anymore except than picking up your car, bringing it to _whereever_ and fixing it there? I don't see any and I think this can and will probably fire back on them.
- mtw 8y agoThere's a genuine risk in this case, the car was flooded, and so were the batteries. Who knows if the frame are still in place or if the wires are still connected to the right place. Imagine a "mechanic" who duct-tapes it, then charge it, the person can put everything on fire and injure people. Then others will sue Tesla. I haven't heard of mechanic setting regular cars on fire when repairing them though. I understand the right of owners to repair their propriety, especially in a time where we consume too much stuff, but a Tesla is just to dangerous for people to work with.
- rimliu 8y agoOne of the popular modifications done here is modifying petrol engines to be able to run on natural gas. And if you see some news about a car catching fire on the street you can bet it had this modification done.
- onli 8y agoIf there is a right to repair all of this does not matter. Tesla has - or should have - the obligation to sell the parts, and probably to also inform of the risks. A bad repair is not on tesla, it's on the mechanic doing the work.
- UnpossibleJim 8y agoThat has yet to be decided. That's the problem. In a reasonable society, of course, no one would question this. However, while driving down the road, a shoddy repair has an effect on another system which interferes with the lane change sensor and allows you to drift into a semi while checking you iPhone, that is Tesla's fault (or so you'll argue in court). Things get into grey areas quickly. Also, if you have a lawyer that's worth his/her salt, they'll try to suppress the fact that you had a repair on an unrelated system by an unlicensed shop.
- thisisit 8y agoI am curious. So you are saying there have been no cases filed in last 50 years where car manufacturers have sold parts but mechanic repairs were shoddy causing an accident?
- AltmousGadfly 8y agoFantastic story! That's what America is all about! To lawmakers - the "Right to Repair" law clearly has a loophole. What is to stop other auto manufacturers from going to an online only sales model in order to bypass the law? Might wanna fix that.
- phkahler 8y agoNo company is under any obligation to sell parts to anyone in particular. The law worked in this case (perhaps by accident). He was able to swap parts from one car to another, which is something that car manufacturers don't want in some cases. You may find replacing electronic components on one vehicle with those from another doesn't work - it's in the name of theft prevention, but that's at odds with right to repair. That didn't happen here, the only obstacles he really had were availability of information and parts.
- benj111 8y agoYou know how its all over the news everytime a Tesla has a crash? EVs are an unknown quantity for most people, if someone repaired their Tesla badly and something happened, all that would be reported is 'Tesla catches fire', but you wouldn't see 'petrol powered Ford catches fire'. So I think its understandable that Tesla would want to be protective. That's not to say that I think they should be allowed to do it though. One would hope that there's an independent testing regime to check that the car is actually roadworthy.
- dwighttk 8y agoto be fair: Tesla is selling you the battery, Ford isn't selling you the petrol
- benj111 8y agoIs that a correct metaphor? Surely the battery is a petrol tank, and electricity, petrol.
- sjwright 8y agoThe metaphor barely works either way and breaks down entirely once you factor in home solar.
- benj111 8y agoHome solar would be a nodding donkey on the patio.
- dwighttk 8y agoThere isn't a metaphor in my post. Does the electricity burn? Or the battery?
- benj111 8y agoOk comparison then. Something burns releasing energy. An empty battery will release less energy than a full one, just like a burning fuel tank. https://www.quora.com/Are-Lithium-Ion-batteries-more-flammable-when-they-are-charged https://www.quora.com/Are-Lithium-Ion-batteries-more-flammab...
- rb808 8y agoWhat if Tesla goes bankrupt? Are we allowed to repair then?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- kw71 8y agoMaybe they won't try to sue you for distributing the documentation and software, then :)
- zzzeek 8y agogoing to go out on a limb as I might not know what I'm talking about - a tesla is blurring the lines between mechanics and software to an even greater degree than most/all other conusmer-level cars on the road. IIUC, Chrysler/Ford/GM/Toyota etc. don't give consumers any ability to mess with the electronics or software in these cars. I can see how Tesla engineers would be uncomfortable with hobbyists putting the cars together themselves. The Teslas are really super different than any other car I've driven (I've driven a few). That said I absolutely support what this guy is doing, I'm just saying allowing your highly computerized car to also be hackable without adding new safety risks adds a lot of engineering expense to it and I can see why Tesla doesn't want to allow that. I don't want people messing with the source code of my libraries that I release and then suing me when they unsuccessfully tried using it to calculate how much fuel their plane has left.
- 3pt14159 8y agoI'm afraid you do not understand correctly. When I started to become concerned about the mass weaponization of autonomous systems I looked into what was actually happening in the field. Tesla is by far the safest out of any consumer-car company with respect to cybersecurity. (Waymo is safer, but their cars aren't in the possession of consumers yet.) There are some other car companies (e.g., Audi) that are better than others, but many of them are downright disasters. Because many large car manufacturers refused to sell tools to engage the software that is used in cars, but mechanics want to interact with it anyway, what they've resorted to doing is relying on third party diagnostic tools. Most of the times these tools are running some horrible out of date version of linux or, if they're lucky, an Arduino. Many of the components within automotives are vulnerable. Ironically, some that tried to take safety seriously often bought into promises from vendors that didn't work out as expected. For example, QNX was damn vulnerable (broken SRNG, admin password backdoor, etc) and it's in countless subcomponents of vehicles of many types, including cars, but also military tanks and freight trucks. (I've even heard that it's been used in scarier stuff, like nuclear power plants, but that's third hand.) Anyway, I don't have all the answers or information, but at least as things stand right now, I'm with Tesla on this one. The last thing we want for our computerized cars is Joe programmer teaming up with Jane mechanic thinking they know what they're doing when they don't.
- reddog 8y agoIf you have an inalienable right to repair/rebuild/modify your Tesla do you also have the right to do the same to your future level 5, fully-autonomous self driving car? Rich is a true engineering rock star for pulling off what he did with the Tesla. And I fully support his right to do so and think Tesla should be more supportive to the backyard mechanics. But if he was trying to do the same thing by kludging together a couple of broken, fully-autonomous cars? I think that is where I would draw the line.
- jaak 8y agoIf you have an inalienable right to repair/rebuild/modify your Tesla do you also have the right to do the same to your future level 5, fully-autonomous self driving car? Absolutely you do. I expect there to be a certain amount of certification and oversight in safety critical systems - perhaps similar to how the FAA regulates repair and maintenance for general aviation.
- oceanplexian 8y agoEven the FAA has an experimental aircraft category where people are allowed to work on their own aircraft and systems with some, but less limited regulation.
- reddog 8y agoWould it then be OK for the autonomous car DIYer to modify the software to drive a bit more aggressively? Or to always favor passenger survival over pedestrian/bicyclist survival in an emergency situation? Or maybe he just wants to use a less expensive LIDAR than the the one car was originally equipped with and wants to mount it in a different place? For that matter, would you be OK with Tesla open sourcing their existing lane keeping/auto pilot system so current owners could hack it however they want?
- ghettoCoder 8y agoHow is that different than the folks who run an after market engine management system, or a custom fuel map on the OEM board? Car manufacturers tried to shut down after-market companies doing this with the same line of argument as well back in the day and lost. We are all still waiting for the car-pocalypse it would cause if permitted to go on. The reality is level 5 is a pipe-dream except for a few situations and I don't expect to ever see it widespread until they resolve the situation where the road is snow-covered, ditch is full of snow so can not be easily identified, it's snowing moderately heavy and there's oncoming traffic, while driving at night. Oh, and it's in a rural area so maps are somewhat lacking in accuracy. When that happens I'll believe it.
- benmorris 8y agoRich brought to light recently how much of a mess the used Tesla experience (no longer CPO) is as well. There are two more videos, the situation is resolved after many months and Tesla execs intervening. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgMTx_xFezM&t=4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgMTx_xFezM&t=4s Wife and I were seriously considering a used Model S but there is no chance we'd go through what he did to buy a used car.
- agumonkey 8y agoHonestly, I believe Tesla is not lying. They may profit from not having a backmarket.. but as of now, people doing part swap on cars is super terrible. It's also pretty easy to imagine that if anything happens on a Tesla, the company will be blamed no matter what. Some people might even sue.
- chriscaruso 8y agoCool stuff. Love people who are passionate enough to embark on a tenuous DIY journey!
- oblib 8y agoThe notion that a "backyard" mechanic cannot repair or modify a Tesla or most anything else is bullshit. So is the notion they can. What's truly at stake here is the right to try.
- almost_usual 8y agoSo we're supposed to treat these Teslas that are 'good' for the environment like an old iPhone and toss them in the landfill when they stop working? Not try to repair them? What a joke. Larry Ellison can shove it. People are going to figure out how to repair their own vehicle no matter what. You can't hide DIY information like that, someone will eventually figure it out and document it.
- asavadatti 8y agoLarry Ellison?
- almost_usual 8y agohttps://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/tesla-stock-price-larry-ellison-kathleen-wilson-thompson-named-to-board-2018-12-1027835823 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/tesla-stock-...
- rootusrootus 8y agoThe next Haynes.