5 ms·

The script has changed considerably over time between different dynasties, and different areas have had mutually unintelligible languages, even if sharing simil

by dak1 8y ago

The script has changed considerably over time between different dynasties, and different areas have had mutually unintelligible languages, even if sharing similar script. For example: Japan shares many characters with Chinese, and Korean and Vietnamese both used to use Chinese characters, but they are all separate languages. Similarly, numerous "dialects" in China are less mutually intelligible than many different Western languages. Compare Portuguese and Spanish to Cantonese, Mandarin, Taiwanese (Hokkien), Fuzhounese, Shanghainese, etc. Not to mention languages like Mongolian (see the Yuan dynasty). And that doesn't even begin to get into even more ethnically diverse regions like Tibet and western China. Then there's also the "warring states period" when, for over 250 years, no fewer than 14 different independently governed states made up what is today eastern China. Claims that China has always been one civilization are politically expedient versions of history that glaze over an enormous quantity of inconvenient facts. Did you know that after the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople, Sultan Mehmed viewed himself as the successor of the Roman Empire and declared himself "Caesar of Rome"? China today is as much a continuation of those previous states as Turkey is of the Roman Empire.

nitwit005 8y ago
> Did you know that after the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople, Sultan Mehmed viewed himself as the successor of the Roman Empire and declared himself "Caesar of Rome"? I was previously curious how many countries declared themselves to be the heirs of the Roman empire, and I found there is something of a wikipedia list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  putting the EU in that list is fishy and a reminder that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, especially for evaluating contemporary information.
  - nitwit005 8y ago
    I'm sure everyone will be shocked to hear such things of an article that begins with a highlighted "The neutrality of this article is disputed.".
    - LoSboccacc 8y ago
      people are literally linking it as source but ok. https://xkcd.com/978/ https://xkcd.com/978/
hungryhobo 8y ago
honestly this is just not?true. the Chinese script have evolved, but one can still look at inscriptions from thousands of years ago and understand it. it might be hard for people to understand different dialects in China but they all use the same writing system, standardized in the Qin dynasty. Same with the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean. A native Chinese speaker would have little problem reading those, although the pronounciations might be a little different
- prevedmedved 8y ago
  Are you seriously claiming that you can understand seal script inscriptions? Are you Indiana Jones?
  - hnnmzh 8y ago
    Yes for me. Of course I don't know every single character by heart but with a little bit practice and the help of a dictionary you can read a lot. You can even download some seal script fonts and make all the Chinese websites shown in seal script.
    - hnnmzh 8y ago
      Some additional thoughts. With some training, people can read seal script inscriptions because the structure is already fairly close to regular script which is what people use today. The radicals are written in slightly different styles from today. It actually makes sense. Seal script is a very artistic form of calligraphy, so people use it for their seals hence the name. An example of the "drum" character: http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zixing/yanbian/11208mb/ http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zixing/yanbian/11208mb/ The horizontal arrow is the time line, starting from oracle bone script. The 4th one of the first row is seal script and the last regular script. The idea depicted here is hitting a decorated drum on a rack with a drum stick holding in the hand.
  - hangonhn 8y ago
    Not sure if you know Chinese or not but seal script will look rather familiar to anyone who knows Chinese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_script If you look at the picture on the upper right, you can make out "tian xia" and "wang" -- all under heaven (i.e. the world) and king (the character for emperor isn't invented yet)
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
Not to forget that the current Chinese government is trying to work hard to erase the diversity of the entirety of China, trying to get everyone to use the same spoken and written language - iirc they already use the same written language, it's just that people will speak the same characters differently depending on region.
- billfruit 8y ago
  The French did something similar in France, changed a rather diversity country into a monoculture, in a period of around 100 years.
  - barberousse 8y ago
    That's a component of modernization most Western European countries went through during the 1800s.
impostir 8y ago
I mostly agree with you, but I have one, albeit a nebulous one, problem. China, as an idea, has been around for ~6000 years. I agree that China, as a distinct political entity, hasn't existed for that time period. The Egyption civilization went through at least 5 significant changes of a political nature, but most would agree that it was still a contiguous civilization. My guess is that civilization is too nebulous of a term for good discussion, but thats just my 2p.
hangonhn 8y ago
The Caesar of Rome title isn't because the sultans actually viewed themselves as a descendant of the Roman empire but rather the inheritors of their legitimacy to rule and is actually part of the prophecies of Islam. Thus for the Sultan to be legitimate, he must conquer Constantinople and Rome (eventually) and thus fulfill the prophecy. (Source: Empires of the Sea) The comparison between China and Turkey as descendants of the Roman Empire is a bit of a stretch. China at least uses the same language (old Chinese poems written in the Tang dynasty and even Han dynasty can still rhyme correctly and make sense if read in Cantonese), holidays, culture, etc. Turkey doesn't use a romance language or Greek.
magduf 8y ago
>For example: Japan shares many characters with Chinese Japanese explicitly borrowed Chinese characters, it doesn't "share" them. It's just like modern English and Latin: English uses Latin characters, but it's not at all the same (or even a similar) language. Lots of languages use the Latin character set, and even Japanese is adopting more and more "Romaji". The characters a written language adopts has little to do with its relation with other languages from a linguistic point-of-view. Latin characters can be used for any language.

by dak1 8y ago

nitwit005 8y ago

> Did you know that after the Ottoman Empire conquered Constantinople, Sultan Mehmed viewed himself as the successor of the Roman Empire and declared himself "Caesar of Rome"? I was previously curious how many countries declared themselves to be the heirs of the Roman empire, and I found there is something of a wikipedia list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome

LoSboccacc 8y ago
putting the EU in that list is fishy and a reminder that Wikipedia is not a reliable source, especially for evaluating contemporary information.
- nitwit005 8y ago
  I'm sure everyone will be shocked to hear such things of an article that begins with a highlighted "The neutrality of this article is disputed.".
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    people are literally linking it as source but ok. https://xkcd.com/978/ https://xkcd.com/978/

hungryhobo 8y ago

honestly this is just not?true. the Chinese script have evolved, but one can still look at inscriptions from thousands of years ago and understand it. it might be hard for people to understand different dialects in China but they all use the same writing system, standardized in the Qin dynasty. Same with the borrowed Chinese characters in Japanese and Korean. A native Chinese speaker would have little problem reading those, although the pronounciations might be a little different

prevedmedved 8y ago
Are you seriously claiming that you can understand seal script inscriptions? Are you Indiana Jones?
- hnnmzh 8y ago
  Yes for me. Of course I don't know every single character by heart but with a little bit practice and the help of a dictionary you can read a lot. You can even download some seal script fonts and make all the Chinese websites shown in seal script.
  - hnnmzh 8y ago
    Some additional thoughts. With some training, people can read seal script inscriptions because the structure is already fairly close to regular script which is what people use today. The radicals are written in slightly different styles from today. It actually makes sense. Seal script is a very artistic form of calligraphy, so people use it for their seals hence the name. An example of the "drum" character: http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zixing/yanbian/11208mb/ http://www.guoxuedashi.com/zixing/yanbian/11208mb/ The horizontal arrow is the time line, starting from oracle bone script. The 4th one of the first row is seal script and the last regular script. The idea depicted here is hitting a decorated drum on a rack with a drum stick holding in the hand.
- hangonhn 8y ago
  Not sure if you know Chinese or not but seal script will look rather familiar to anyone who knows Chinese: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_script If you look at the picture on the upper right, you can make out "tian xia" and "wang" -- all under heaven (i.e. the world) and king (the character for emperor isn't invented yet)

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

Not to forget that the current Chinese government is trying to work hard to erase the diversity of the entirety of China, trying to get everyone to use the same spoken and written language - iirc they already use the same written language, it's just that people will speak the same characters differently depending on region.

billfruit 8y ago
The French did something similar in France, changed a rather diversity country into a monoculture, in a period of around 100 years.
- barberousse 8y ago
  That's a component of modernization most Western European countries went through during the 1800s.

impostir 8y ago

I mostly agree with you, but I have one, albeit a nebulous one, problem. China, as an idea, has been around for ~6000 years. I agree that China, as a distinct political entity, hasn't existed for that time period. The Egyption civilization went through at least 5 significant changes of a political nature, but most would agree that it was still a contiguous civilization. My guess is that civilization is too nebulous of a term for good discussion, but thats just my 2p.

hangonhn 8y ago

The Caesar of Rome title isn't because the sultans actually viewed themselves as a descendant of the Roman empire but rather the inheritors of their legitimacy to rule and is actually part of the prophecies of Islam. Thus for the Sultan to be legitimate, he must conquer Constantinople and Rome (eventually) and thus fulfill the prophecy. (Source: Empires of the Sea) The comparison between China and Turkey as descendants of the Roman Empire is a bit of a stretch. China at least uses the same language (old Chinese poems written in the Tang dynasty and even Han dynasty can still rhyme correctly and make sense if read in Cantonese), holidays, culture, etc. Turkey doesn't use a romance language or Greek.

magduf 8y ago

>For example: Japan shares many characters with Chinese Japanese explicitly borrowed Chinese characters, it doesn't "share" them. It's just like modern English and Latin: English uses Latin characters, but it's not at all the same (or even a similar) language. Lots of languages use the Latin character set, and even Japanese is adopting more and more "Romaji". The characters a written language adopts has little to do with its relation with other languages from a linguistic point-of-view. Latin characters can be used for any language.