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It's only "apples to oranges" if you're willing to beg the entire question. Why is elementary teaching less highly paid than university teaching? Why is nurse p

It's only "apples to oranges" if you're willing to beg the entire question. Why is elementary teaching less highly paid than university teaching? Why is nurse practitioning less highly paid than anaesthesiologizing?

insickness 8y ago
Is this really a question? It takes more dedicated study to become an anesthesiologist than an elementary school teacher.
- bandrami 8y ago
  Does it? Both require professional degrees and a practical internship.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    I know of no jurisdiction where becoming an elementary school teacher requires a professional degree or practical internship.
sleepysysadmin 8y ago
>It's only "apples to oranges" if you're willing to beg the entire question. Why is elementary teaching less highly paid than university teaching? Why is nurse practitioning less highly paid than anaesthesiologizing? Because of education level? A university professor has a PHD. An elementary teacher has a bachelors degree. If you think a PHD and a bachelors degree should be paid the same. That's perfectly fine, that's called communism. It's perfectly fine to be a communist.
- ALittleLight 8y ago
  This isn't quite right. People are paid such that the amount is enough to attract needed workers and less than the value those workers provide. Education isn't a critical factor except that it enables people to be more productive and therefore more desirable to employers. As an example: a middle school dropout who self learned machine learning, became a master, published papers, worked at a successful startup etc, will likely be better paid than your average History PhD.
tfha 8y ago
Supply and demand. Easier to become an elementary teacher, more qualified elementary teachers available compared to the need
- 8note 8y ago
  I'm not sure if that's a good thing. the bar for elementary teachers might just be too low
reitanqild 8y ago
In case anyone isn't aware of the obvious answer it is at least partially because of supply and demand. More people are considered qualified as elementary school teachers than those qualified for university teaching. Same with nurses and doctors.
kbutler 8y ago
Amount of training required. I'd be fine with a random anesthesiologist teaching my grade schooler, but I'd hesitate to have a random elementary school teacher giving him anesthesia. Elementary school teaching: a teaching certificate. University professor: PhD, pre-tenure work & published research (Note that there are less-qualified people teaching in universities that are compensated much less.) Nurse practitioner: Master's degree (undergraduate plus 2 years) Anesthesiologist: Undergraduate + medical degree (4 years) + residency (4 years) + possible specialty training.
- organsnyder 8y ago
  How do software developers fare under that regime? I make 3x more as a software developer than my teacher friends that have had far more schooling (masters degrees in many cases, plus continuing education requirements). I don't know where you live, but in my state (Michigan) teachers have rigorous certification requirements. And I definitely would NOT expect someone without training to be an effective teacher. I'm in awe of what my kids' teachers are able to do. Classroom management is a skill that is incredibly difficult to master.
  - kbutler 8y ago
    Successful software engineers have a lot of knowledge & skill that is often acquired informally, so it may not be reflected in university history. Because of the demand for developers and the apparent difficulty of acquiring the skills, they are well-compensated. If a person has a bachelor's degree, they can get a Michigan interim teaching certificate by passing a test. https://www.teachercertificationdegrees.com/certification/michigan-alternative/ https://www.teachercertificationdegrees.com/certification/mi... Permanent certification then requires 12 hours (1 semester full-time) of courses, or working toward a masters degree would probably give an immediate and permanent bump in pay. Imagine a random liberal arts graduate: Would it be easier to go into elementary teaching in Michigan or software development?
    - organsnyder 8y ago
      I see a lot of parallels between this alternative certification route and a bootcamp: yes, the route is shorter, but you're at a huge disadvantage when applying for entry-level positions. The teachers I know personally obtained traditional four-plus-year bachelors degrees before applying for jobs. In most cases, they had to do a year or more of subbing before finding a permanent position. (edit to add: education degrees are very hard to get done in four years, especially with the aiding, student teaching, etc.)
screye 8y ago
Let's not act as though those are in any ways similar. Elementary school teaching does require less academic rigor than a university professor. Same applies to RNs vs an anesthesiologist. I do not mean to belittle those career choices (if anything, I myself want to become a k12 school teacher at some point in life). But, there are a certain set of traits that are needed to excel at the 'prestigious' careers. Disposition towards hard work beyond the standard 9-5, an acumen for logical reasoning, ability to retain large quantities of information are all more rare than social skills and empathy, which take precedence in elementary teaching or nursing. Our culture idolizes the hard working, career oriented person, that sacrifice other things in life to singularly chase this money and fame driven idea of success. This is irrespective of how physically/mentally healthy it is, or if it positively correlates to long term happiness. IMO, it leads to an obsession to prove that men and women being equal, would have equal outcomes on this narrow benchmark for success. It both neglects the fact that that social norms haven't changed as much and that equal outcome is meaningless without context. p.s: nice to see someone use 'beg the question' in the correct context.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  > Elementary school teaching does require less academic rigor than a university professor. But you replace that with a need for a lot more knowledge of teaching and child psychology, so I'd say doing a good job is significantly harder even in the sense of requiring a lot of education.
  - screye 8y ago
    > a lot more knowledge of teaching and child psychology Do they really though? In my experience, school teachers don't really have either and both are either learned on the job or academically taught when pursuing the major. Being a great teacher is tough, but very few teachers are actually great. Being a university professor is IMO, among the hardest positions to get. In my experience, the smartest people I know are university professors. If anything, many university professors are grossly underpaid (for what they offer) in exchange for job security and complete freedom to pursue what they love.

insickness 8y ago

Is this really a question? It takes more dedicated study to become an anesthesiologist than an elementary school teacher.

bandrami 8y ago
Does it? Both require professional degrees and a practical internship.
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  I know of no jurisdiction where becoming an elementary school teacher requires a professional degree or practical internship.

sleepysysadmin 8y ago

>It's only "apples to oranges" if you're willing to beg the entire question. Why is elementary teaching less highly paid than university teaching? Why is nurse practitioning less highly paid than anaesthesiologizing? Because of education level? A university professor has a PHD. An elementary teacher has a bachelors degree. If you think a PHD and a bachelors degree should be paid the same. That's perfectly fine, that's called communism. It's perfectly fine to be a communist.

ALittleLight 8y ago
This isn't quite right. People are paid such that the amount is enough to attract needed workers and less than the value those workers provide. Education isn't a critical factor except that it enables people to be more productive and therefore more desirable to employers. As an example: a middle school dropout who self learned machine learning, became a master, published papers, worked at a successful startup etc, will likely be better paid than your average History PhD.

tfha 8y ago

Supply and demand. Easier to become an elementary teacher, more qualified elementary teachers available compared to the need

8note 8y ago
I'm not sure if that's a good thing. the bar for elementary teachers might just be too low

reitanqild 8y ago

In case anyone isn't aware of the obvious answer it is at least partially because of supply and demand. More people are considered qualified as elementary school teachers than those qualified for university teaching. Same with nurses and doctors.

kbutler 8y ago

Amount of training required. I'd be fine with a random anesthesiologist teaching my grade schooler, but I'd hesitate to have a random elementary school teacher giving him anesthesia. Elementary school teaching: a teaching certificate. University professor: PhD, pre-tenure work & published research (Note that there are less-qualified people teaching in universities that are compensated much less.) Nurse practitioner: Master's degree (undergraduate plus 2 years) Anesthesiologist: Undergraduate + medical degree (4 years) + residency (4 years) + possible specialty training.

organsnyder 8y ago
How do software developers fare under that regime? I make 3x more as a software developer than my teacher friends that have had far more schooling (masters degrees in many cases, plus continuing education requirements). I don't know where you live, but in my state (Michigan) teachers have rigorous certification requirements. And I definitely would NOT expect someone without training to be an effective teacher. I'm in awe of what my kids' teachers are able to do. Classroom management is a skill that is incredibly difficult to master.
- kbutler 8y ago
  Successful software engineers have a lot of knowledge & skill that is often acquired informally, so it may not be reflected in university history. Because of the demand for developers and the apparent difficulty of acquiring the skills, they are well-compensated. If a person has a bachelor's degree, they can get a Michigan interim teaching certificate by passing a test. https://www.teachercertificationdegrees.com/certification/michigan-alternative/ https://www.teachercertificationdegrees.com/certification/mi... Permanent certification then requires 12 hours (1 semester full-time) of courses, or working toward a masters degree would probably give an immediate and permanent bump in pay. Imagine a random liberal arts graduate: Would it be easier to go into elementary teaching in Michigan or software development?
  - organsnyder 8y ago
    I see a lot of parallels between this alternative certification route and a bootcamp: yes, the route is shorter, but you're at a huge disadvantage when applying for entry-level positions. The teachers I know personally obtained traditional four-plus-year bachelors degrees before applying for jobs. In most cases, they had to do a year or more of subbing before finding a permanent position. (edit to add: education degrees are very hard to get done in four years, especially with the aiding, student teaching, etc.)

screye 8y ago

Let's not act as though those are in any ways similar. Elementary school teaching does require less academic rigor than a university professor. Same applies to RNs vs an anesthesiologist. I do not mean to belittle those career choices (if anything, I myself want to become a k12 school teacher at some point in life). But, there are a certain set of traits that are needed to excel at the 'prestigious' careers. Disposition towards hard work beyond the standard 9-5, an acumen for logical reasoning, ability to retain large quantities of information are all more rare than social skills and empathy, which take precedence in elementary teaching or nursing. Our culture idolizes the hard working, career oriented person, that sacrifice other things in life to singularly chase this money and fame driven idea of success. This is irrespective of how physically/mentally healthy it is, or if it positively correlates to long term happiness. IMO, it leads to an obsession to prove that men and women being equal, would have equal outcomes on this narrow benchmark for success. It both neglects the fact that that social norms haven't changed as much and that equal outcome is meaningless without context. p.s: nice to see someone use 'beg the question' in the correct context.

Dylan16807 8y ago
> Elementary school teaching does require less academic rigor than a university professor. But you replace that with a need for a lot more knowledge of teaching and child psychology, so I'd say doing a good job is significantly harder even in the sense of requiring a lot of education.
- screye 8y ago
  > a lot more knowledge of teaching and child psychology Do they really though? In my experience, school teachers don't really have either and both are either learned on the job or academically taught when pursuing the major. Being a great teacher is tough, but very few teachers are actually great. Being a university professor is IMO, among the hardest positions to get. In my experience, the smartest people I know are university professors. If anything, many university professors are grossly underpaid (for what they offer) in exchange for job security and complete freedom to pursue what they love.