5 ms·

> Demler’s complaint involves Florida’s digital music player program, which let inmates buy a specially designed media player for $99 or $119, then buy individu

by kartan 8y ago

> Demler’s complaint involves Florida’s digital music player program, which let inmates buy a specially designed media player for $99 or $119, then buy individual songs or audiobooks for $1.70 apiece. I guess that the bigger is the inmate population the easier is to make more money. > But in 2018, the FDOC switched to a new company called JPay, which didn’t honor the earlier purchases. The agency required inmates to trade in their music players for new multimedia tablets, or to pay $25 and have the players shipped to someone outside prison. That is a perfect business. You have literally captivated customers. I think that USA do not see inmates as human beings. That is the only way to explain what happens there. But, they are human and abusing them is as much as a crime as abusing anyone else.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
> I think that USA do not see inmates as human beings. That is the only way to explain what happens there. But, they are human and abusing them is as much as a crime as abusing anyone else. Most people in the US don't. Which, combined with its history of racism, goes a long way towards explaining the school-to-prison pipeline.
- smokeyj 8y ago
  Law enforcement and prison unions have a financial interest to support mass incarceration. They lobby against drug legalization and have a history of systematic violence. I wonder which way union members vote.
- wernercd 8y ago
  > history of racism US is one of the least racist - up to and including freeing slaves. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.a56a927e068b https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...
  - hopler 8y ago
    The article is about something else -- whether people admit racism to a survey. Americans know that racism is "politically incorrect". How many countries had millions of slaves (15% of the population) to free? Also interesting that you say "up to and including freeing slaves", which excluded the racially founded prison industrial complex that was created to replac e slavery after the 13th Amendment. Not saying US is the worst, am saying not to ignore USA's ugly history and present, especially USA claims to be the world leader in freedom and human rights.
  - gizmo686 8y ago
    I certainly agree with you that, on the whole, the US is a far more tolerant country than many of us give it credit for. However, the US was pretty late to the game to abolishing slavery; and it only did so after being dragged kicking and screaming [0]. The south then did everything in its power to resurrect de-facto slavery. And that is just the anti-black racism. [0] Even the North didn't support abolishing slavery until after the Civil war started, at which point the argument was largely 'we just fought and won a war over this, lets at least get something out of it".
  - tdb7893 8y ago
    Slavery, Chinese exclusion act, Japanese internment, Jim crow laws, are just some examples of the times public policy was explicitly racist. A bunch more things are implicitly racist, with the war on drugs being one of them (interestingly one of Nixon's aides said that the war on drugs was essentially made to criminalize black people and hippies).
  - supermatt 8y ago
    i think you need to read up on your history, especially regarding when and why the prison system was founded. also, that link is regarding a survey asking people if they think they are racist, it’s hardly objective
sjwpv 8y ago
I think it's reasonable to see people who have no respect for the law, which is one of the strongest and most basic pillars of our society, as lesser than human. (Now I'll get responses telling me how some people are unjustly incarcerated. You missed the point)
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  What percent of the prison population do you think has no respect for the law? Some of them have disrespect for some laws, which can be entirely reasonable and not make them lesser at all. Some of them were desperate. Very few fall into the bucket you described.
  - sjwpv 8y ago
    >Some of them have disrespect for some laws, which can be entirely reasonable and not make them lesser at all. Ah, so I get to pick which laws I obey and which laws I don't? >Some of them were desperate. Not an excuse.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      > Ah, so I get to pick which laws I obey and which laws I don't? You're still a criminal, but depending on how you picked the laws you're probably not subhuman. > Not an excuse. It's not a legal defense (usually), but it's a defense against being antithetical to society itself.
    - happytoexplain 8y ago
      >Ah, so I get to pick which laws I obey and which laws I don't? What is the context for this response? >Not an excuse. Not an excuse for what? Treating criminals like human beings?
    - arcticbull 8y ago
      If you've ever crossed the street unlawfully, in certain states you've committed a misdemeanor. Usually handled via a fine, if you can't pay the fine, you may end up in prison. Or if you're an 84 year old man in New York during a crackdown, I suppose [1]. So people who jaywalk are the scum of the earth now? Fascinating. If you're a green card holder and leave the card at home, and run into a law enforcement officer, that's a $100 fine or 1 month in jail. Luckily I've got my photocopy here, ah wait, that's insufficient. Good point -- scum of the earth, I'll see myself to jail. You can go to jail for possessing a lobster less than 3.25" long even if you found it washed up on shore, you absolute monster [3]. Have you, yourself, ever held a short lobster? Remember! Not knowing isn't an excuse either! Nobody even knows how many federal laws there are [4]. We've tried to count them and failed a number of times. Stalin's head of secret police once said "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime" -- well, if the set of crimes in the US is un-countable, I bet you that works equally well here. I've never met you, but I guarantee, you've accrued enough potential legal liability to spend the rest of your miserable life in prison, and yet you're out wandering around, calling others scum (in a different thread) and showing off that you've never been to prison. So what's difference? Luck I guess. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2014/01/21/84-year-old-jaywalker-could-get-jail-while-deadly-drivers-get-off-scot-free/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2014/01/21/84-year-old-jaywalker... [2] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car... [3] https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2016/08/no/dmf-lobster-parts-report-123112.pdf https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2016/08/no/dmf-lobster-... [4] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304319804576389601079728920 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304319804576389...
mnm1 8y ago
> I think that USA do not see inmates as human beings. I think the US doesn't see most of its citizens as human beings, let alone its inmates. That is indeed the root of this and many problems.
mynameishere 8y ago
I think if you didn't see inmates as human beings you wouldn't allow music players at all.
- klyrs 8y ago
  You needn't recognize one's humanity to exploit their capital...
zaksoup 8y ago
The 13th amendment to the constitution (emphasis mine): “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States” I think it’s important to frame any discussion of criminal justice reform in the US in the fact that our modern legal system is built on laws and loopholes, beginning with the 13th amendment, that exist solely to criminalize and reenslave huge portions of the population. I highly recommend the documentary “13th” on Netflix for more info.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  Yeah, the US has specifically been criticized for this by the UN International Labor Organization. They definitely frown upon the US prison farms and allowing private organizations to utilize prisoners for below-market-rate work. If you want to see a great way of undercutting US blue collar worker salaries, it's hard to compete with "free and mandatory."
  - hopler 8y ago
    Oh but it's not "mandatory" if they restrict privileges for everyone and then offer them back for labor. Or jack up prices for monopoly goods and services and then offer jobs, which is illegal in "compared towns" outside of prison.
willart4food 8y ago
> That is the only way to explain what happens there. There's another explanation: Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  But there isn't really any "stupid" here, it's just plain greed. All these prison companies that charge outrageous prices (I mean $1.70 per song?? A $119 mp3 player when you can get one on Amazon for $20??) to poor people simply because they can. Don't even get me started on phone call rates, but check out https://www.prisonphonejustice.org https://www.prisonphonejustice.org if you care for more evidence. I'm not a religious person, but sometimes I truly wish hell exists so that these prison profiteers, who have sold their soul to the devil, at least get what they deserve in the afterlife.
  - willart4food 8y ago
    Do the people who signed the agreement actually understand DRM? Did they understand the ripple effects? Or did they just sign because . . .
- renholder 8y ago
  Whilst I would agree with Hanlon's razor possibly being applicable here, there is another (unwritten) rule (can we call it the HN Law?) that says that as soon as you invalidate the value of someone's life, no matter the context, you automatically ascribe approval of any potential abuses against them.
e40 8y ago
I think that USA do not see inmates as human beings. That is the only way to explain what happens there. But, they are human and abusing them is as much as a crime as abusing anyone else. While I agree, I think this is more corporations do not give af about their customers. How many music services have done this? I don't have a count, but I've heard of a few.

by kartan 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

> I think that USA do not see inmates as human beings. That is the only way to explain what happens there. But, they are human and abusing them is as much as a crime as abusing anyone else. Most people in the US don't. Which, combined with its history of racism, goes a long way towards explaining the school-to-prison pipeline.

smokeyj 8y ago
Law enforcement and prison unions have a financial interest to support mass incarceration. They lobby against drug legalization and have a history of systematic violence. I wonder which way union members vote.
wernercd 8y ago
> history of racism US is one of the least racist - up to and including freeing slaves. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/?utm_term=.a56a927e068b https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...
- hopler 8y ago
  The article is about something else -- whether people admit racism to a survey. Americans know that racism is "politically incorrect". How many countries had millions of slaves (15% of the population) to free? Also interesting that you say "up to and including freeing slaves", which excluded the racially founded prison industrial complex that was created to replac e slavery after the 13th Amendment. Not saying US is the worst, am saying not to ignore USA's ugly history and present, especially USA claims to be the world leader in freedom and human rights.
- gizmo686 8y ago
  I certainly agree with you that, on the whole, the US is a far more tolerant country than many of us give it credit for. However, the US was pretty late to the game to abolishing slavery; and it only did so after being dragged kicking and screaming [0]. The south then did everything in its power to resurrect de-facto slavery. And that is just the anti-black racism. [0] Even the North didn't support abolishing slavery until after the Civil war started, at which point the argument was largely 'we just fought and won a war over this, lets at least get something out of it".
- tdb7893 8y ago
  Slavery, Chinese exclusion act, Japanese internment, Jim crow laws, are just some examples of the times public policy was explicitly racist. A bunch more things are implicitly racist, with the war on drugs being one of them (interestingly one of Nixon's aides said that the war on drugs was essentially made to criminalize black people and hippies).
- supermatt 8y ago
  i think you need to read up on your history, especially regarding when and why the prison system was founded. also, that link is regarding a survey asking people if they think they are racist, it’s hardly objective

sjwpv 8y ago

I think it's reasonable to see people who have no respect for the law, which is one of the strongest and most basic pillars of our society, as lesser than human. (Now I'll get responses telling me how some people are unjustly incarcerated. You missed the point)

Dylan16807 8y ago
What percent of the prison population do you think has no respect for the law? Some of them have disrespect for some laws, which can be entirely reasonable and not make them lesser at all. Some of them were desperate. Very few fall into the bucket you described.
- sjwpv 8y ago
  >Some of them have disrespect for some laws, which can be entirely reasonable and not make them lesser at all. Ah, so I get to pick which laws I obey and which laws I don't? >Some of them were desperate. Not an excuse.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    > Ah, so I get to pick which laws I obey and which laws I don't? You're still a criminal, but depending on how you picked the laws you're probably not subhuman. > Not an excuse. It's not a legal defense (usually), but it's a defense against being antithetical to society itself.
  - happytoexplain 8y ago
    >Ah, so I get to pick which laws I obey and which laws I don't? What is the context for this response? >Not an excuse. Not an excuse for what? Treating criminals like human beings?
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    If you've ever crossed the street unlawfully, in certain states you've committed a misdemeanor. Usually handled via a fine, if you can't pay the fine, you may end up in prison. Or if you're an 84 year old man in New York during a crackdown, I suppose [1]. So people who jaywalk are the scum of the earth now? Fascinating. If you're a green card holder and leave the card at home, and run into a law enforcement officer, that's a $100 fine or 1 month in jail. Luckily I've got my photocopy here, ah wait, that's insufficient. Good point -- scum of the earth, I'll see myself to jail. You can go to jail for possessing a lobster less than 3.25" long even if you found it washed up on shore, you absolute monster [3]. Have you, yourself, ever held a short lobster? Remember! Not knowing isn't an excuse either! Nobody even knows how many federal laws there are [4]. We've tried to count them and failed a number of times. Stalin's head of secret police once said "Show me the man, and I'll show you the crime" -- well, if the set of crimes in the US is un-countable, I bet you that works equally well here. I've never met you, but I guarantee, you've accrued enough potential legal liability to spend the rest of your miserable life in prison, and yet you're out wandering around, calling others scum (in a different thread) and showing off that you've never been to prison. So what's difference? Luck I guess. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2014/01/21/84-year-old-jaywalker-could-get-jail-while-deadly-drivers-get-off-scot-free/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2014/01/21/84-year-old-jaywalker... [2] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-carry-green-card-me.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/do-i-really-need-car... [3] https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2016/08/no/dmf-lobster-parts-report-123112.pdf https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2016/08/no/dmf-lobster-... [4] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304319804576389601079728920 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304319804576389...

mnm1 8y ago

> I think that USA do not see inmates as human beings. I think the US doesn't see most of its citizens as human beings, let alone its inmates. That is indeed the root of this and many problems.

mynameishere 8y ago

I think if you didn't see inmates as human beings you wouldn't allow music players at all.

klyrs 8y ago
You needn't recognize one's humanity to exploit their capital...

zaksoup 8y ago

The 13th amendment to the constitution (emphasis mine): “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States” I think it’s important to frame any discussion of criminal justice reform in the US in the fact that our modern legal system is built on laws and loopholes, beginning with the 13th amendment, that exist solely to criminalize and reenslave huge portions of the population. I highly recommend the documentary “13th” on Netflix for more info.

arcticbull 8y ago
Yeah, the US has specifically been criticized for this by the UN International Labor Organization. They definitely frown upon the US prison farms and allowing private organizations to utilize prisoners for below-market-rate work. If you want to see a great way of undercutting US blue collar worker salaries, it's hard to compete with "free and mandatory."
- hopler 8y ago
  Oh but it's not "mandatory" if they restrict privileges for everyone and then offer them back for labor. Or jack up prices for monopoly goods and services and then offer jobs, which is illegal in "compared towns" outside of prison.

willart4food 8y ago

> That is the only way to explain what happens there. There's another explanation: Hanlon's razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
But there isn't really any "stupid" here, it's just plain greed. All these prison companies that charge outrageous prices (I mean $1.70 per song?? A $119 mp3 player when you can get one on Amazon for $20??) to poor people simply because they can. Don't even get me started on phone call rates, but check out https://www.prisonphonejustice.org https://www.prisonphonejustice.org if you care for more evidence. I'm not a religious person, but sometimes I truly wish hell exists so that these prison profiteers, who have sold their soul to the devil, at least get what they deserve in the afterlife.
- willart4food 8y ago
  Do the people who signed the agreement actually understand DRM? Did they understand the ripple effects? Or did they just sign because . . .
renholder 8y ago
Whilst I would agree with Hanlon's razor possibly being applicable here, there is another (unwritten) rule (can we call it the HN Law?) that says that as soon as you invalidate the value of someone's life, no matter the context, you automatically ascribe approval of any potential abuses against them.

e40 8y ago

I think that USA do not see inmates as human beings. That is the only way to explain what happens there. But, they are human and abusing them is as much as a crime as abusing anyone else. While I agree, I think this is more corporations do not give af about their customers. How many music services have done this? I don't have a count, but I've heard of a few.