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The US routinely makes a mockery of the rule of law, just look at all the people denied legal process, abducted and taken to black sites for torture during the

The US routinely makes a mockery of the rule of law, just look at all the people denied legal process, abducted and taken to black sites for torture during the 'War on Terror'. The US is not some shining beacon of justice and fairness, it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest.

adventured 8y ago
> just look at all the people denied legal process Relying on a few references - precisely because it's not common - in a country of 330 million, does not support your claim. The reason cases of denied legal process get so much attention in the US, is because they're rare. The reason a million detained Muslims in China isn't causing an uproar in the Muslim world, is because they know China has no protections for human rights and it does no good to protest. Contrast that with the protests regarding Abu Ghraib. Why was that an massive, international embarrassment for the US, if it's just the same as China? > it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest Saying it, does not make it so. The fact that that is incorrect, is precisely why so many people - of such diverse backgrounds - want to immigrate to the US and have for the past century. Much of Latin America would immediately immigrate if given the option, because of how corrupt the majority of Latin America is (see: how low Latin American nations rank [1]). The US routinely ranks high among nations on the quality of its justice system, the independence of its judicial system and its protection of property rights. That has been true for a very long time. Transparency International ranks China #88 on corruption and Russia #138, to name two prominent examples. Denmark is ranked #1 for lowest corruption, New Zealand is #2. The US ranks comparable to France and Japan. So your premise is there's no difference between the US, Denmark, New Zealand, France, Japan, China and Russia - since everyone is just as corrupt and capcricious as all the rest. Of course that's not true. The US is a liberal democracy with vast protections for human rights. China and Russia, as contrasts, are regressive dictatorships with few protections for human rights. [1] https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018 https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018
- crumbshot 8y ago
  While rare in the number of people directly affected by the US abducting and torturing them, the fact that it was permitted and encouraged by the country's leadership says a lot about the attitude of the US to human rights and legal process. Anyway, the US has more systemic problems in how it affords legal process to the accused. The widespread racism that still permeates the country's institutions. The misuse of plea bargaining, which seems almost designed to deny proper legal process to the accused, unless they're wealthy enough to challenge it. Even in sentencing, the US still uses the death penalty, something that most other countries, especially highly-developed countries, have abolished.
  - product50 8y ago
    You are in extremely shaky grounds given you are comparing Chinese communist regime is US' in terms of human rights and legal processes. Who are you kidding here? You won't even know when people disappear in China and the legal process is there is completely driven by the govt vs. the country having an independent judiciary. Look at how Apple denied FBI to give it access to their device and took the case straight to SCOTUS. Are you really serious that such a thing can happen in China? And human rights - I feel the fact that I have to explain this tells me that I am talking to someone who is ignorant and will not agree to my point regardless of what I say.
dangero 8y ago
No it’s not just as corrupt as all the rest. I agree there is corruption, but to equate corruption in all countries is bogus. Nuance is important in this case.
- crumbshot 8y ago
  I see your point, I strayed into rhetoric there somewhat. On the topic of US corruption, it will be interesting to see the outcome of the Mueller investigation. I suspect most of those at the top will get away with it with scant repercussion. At least, that's what usually happens.
- robin_reala 8y ago
  To put some data to this discussion, in Transparency International’s 2018 rankings, the US comes in 22nd least corrupt, and China comes in at number 87: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018 https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018
  - crumbshot 8y ago
    Note however that this is a ranking of perceived corruption from a group of adjudicators, which isn't necessarily the same as actual corruption.
    - robin_reala 8y ago
      True, but it’s better than two lay-people having an argument on a message board :)
kolinko 8y ago
As someone who spent childhood in a communist country - no, it’s not the same. Us has a lot of flaws, and the justice system (for less affluent people) is a shame but it is uncomparable to a totalitarian regime.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

adventured 8y ago

> just look at all the people denied legal process Relying on a few references - precisely because it's not common - in a country of 330 million, does not support your claim. The reason cases of denied legal process get so much attention in the US, is because they're rare. The reason a million detained Muslims in China isn't causing an uproar in the Muslim world, is because they know China has no protections for human rights and it does no good to protest. Contrast that with the protests regarding Abu Ghraib. Why was that an massive, international embarrassment for the US, if it's just the same as China? > it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest Saying it, does not make it so. The fact that that is incorrect, is precisely why so many people - of such diverse backgrounds - want to immigrate to the US and have for the past century. Much of Latin America would immediately immigrate if given the option, because of how corrupt the majority of Latin America is (see: how low Latin American nations rank [1]). The US routinely ranks high among nations on the quality of its justice system, the independence of its judicial system and its protection of property rights. That has been true for a very long time. Transparency International ranks China #88 on corruption and Russia #138, to name two prominent examples. Denmark is ranked #1 for lowest corruption, New Zealand is #2. The US ranks comparable to France and Japan. So your premise is there's no difference between the US, Denmark, New Zealand, France, Japan, China and Russia - since everyone is just as corrupt and capcricious as all the rest. Of course that's not true. The US is a liberal democracy with vast protections for human rights. China and Russia, as contrasts, are regressive dictatorships with few protections for human rights. [1] https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018 https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018

crumbshot 8y ago
While rare in the number of people directly affected by the US abducting and torturing them, the fact that it was permitted and encouraged by the country's leadership says a lot about the attitude of the US to human rights and legal process. Anyway, the US has more systemic problems in how it affords legal process to the accused. The widespread racism that still permeates the country's institutions. The misuse of plea bargaining, which seems almost designed to deny proper legal process to the accused, unless they're wealthy enough to challenge it. Even in sentencing, the US still uses the death penalty, something that most other countries, especially highly-developed countries, have abolished.
- product50 8y ago
  You are in extremely shaky grounds given you are comparing Chinese communist regime is US' in terms of human rights and legal processes. Who are you kidding here? You won't even know when people disappear in China and the legal process is there is completely driven by the govt vs. the country having an independent judiciary. Look at how Apple denied FBI to give it access to their device and took the case straight to SCOTUS. Are you really serious that such a thing can happen in China? And human rights - I feel the fact that I have to explain this tells me that I am talking to someone who is ignorant and will not agree to my point regardless of what I say.

dangero 8y ago

No it’s not just as corrupt as all the rest. I agree there is corruption, but to equate corruption in all countries is bogus. Nuance is important in this case.

crumbshot 8y ago
I see your point, I strayed into rhetoric there somewhat. On the topic of US corruption, it will be interesting to see the outcome of the Mueller investigation. I suspect most of those at the top will get away with it with scant repercussion. At least, that's what usually happens.
robin_reala 8y ago
To put some data to this discussion, in Transparency International’s 2018 rankings, the US comes in 22nd least corrupt, and China comes in at number 87: https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018 https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018
- crumbshot 8y ago
  Note however that this is a ranking of perceived corruption from a group of adjudicators, which isn't necessarily the same as actual corruption.
  - robin_reala 8y ago
    True, but it’s better than two lay-people having an argument on a message board :)

kolinko 8y ago

As someone who spent childhood in a communist country - no, it’s not the same. Us has a lot of flaws, and the justice system (for less affluent people) is a shame but it is uncomparable to a totalitarian regime.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]