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And the States do the same thing. shrug Everyone is spying on eachother and we are not safe from that, despite what is said. I’m more afraid of the NSA having

And the States do the same thing. shrug Everyone is spying on eachother and we are not safe from that, despite what is said. I’m more afraid of the NSA having far reaching powers to spy on their own citizens than I am of China hacking into the NSA

_iyig 8y ago
If the NSA spies on your text messages as opposed to the CCP, you (and your family) are much less likely to be imprisoned, tortured, or killed on the basis of your religious or political beliefs.
- izacus 8y ago
  Systemic harassment, no fly lists and personal surveillance of muslim people happening in USA makes your sentence a joke.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    While those are wrong, they aren't: > imprisoned, tortured, or killed on the basis of your religious or political beliefs You've entirely failed to refute the parent comment.
    - iforgotpassword 8y ago
      Uuh so China is doing drone bombings in the US then or how's that gonna work?
      - hannasanarion 8y ago
        No, they're doing bombings, massacres, and death camps inside their own country.
        iforgotpassword 8y ago
        Yes so how does that affect someone in the US or Europe?
  - product50 8y ago
    Why don't you go to China and try calling their President by names and see what happens to you? Are you really serious comparing the two countries? Surveillance of Muslims vs. China kidnapping Uyghurs and putting them in re-education camps? Are you even seriously comparing the two countries here?
    - monksy 8y ago
      The correct response to that is "winnie the pooh" not "names" .
threeseed 8y ago
Does the US have: (a) Social credit system which centres around facial recognition of the entire population ? (b) Reeducation camps where tens of millions of Muslims, Uyghurs, dissidents, journalists etc are sent to based on surveillance of their online activity ? (c) Free reign to do whatever they want unfettered by any judicial or political oversight mechanisms ? (d) Companies and the government stealing intellectual property on an industrial scale ? The answer to all of those is no. US is a democracy with checks and balances provided by Congress, Journalists and the Courts. China has none of these.
- throwaway6oo 8y ago
  You are taking about things that you have inside USA (while conviniantly forgetting about Guatanamo bay, CIA transport planes,...). On the other side, USA is digitally spying on whole world for at least 40 years (search for Echelon). It was stated USA is doing it the same. Actually USA is far worse and I would gladly take Huawei network equip ment - over the time, chinese are becoming more trustworthy than USA.
- izacus 8y ago
  Pretty much answer to all of this is yes - terrorist blacklists powered by cameras and surveillance in public, Guantanamo Bay with prisoners without due process and oversight, police killing black people without punishment and military industrial complex lobbying established government all exist. From the outside, USA with its more noticably overbearing propaganda or China with its disregard for US set morality don't seem that hugely different. These moral arguments from US side are laughable for anyone who was sitting on the other side of diplomatic table. Lesson here is that we (as in europeans) need to get rid of dependency on both of those nations for core services.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    The US isn't perfect, but the events you're talking about are in no way comparable to imprisoning a million Uighurs in camps. Or executing Falun Gong practitioners and harvesting their organs. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...
outlace 8y ago
We can argue about which country has the worst spying record, but there's a fundamental difference between a country where you can be imprisoned for years for merely sharing a web post that is critical of the government and one where you can stand in front of the White House with signs calling the president an idiot racist and nothing bad happens. Genuine rule of law and a truly independent judiciary make all the difference. I say this as someone who is quite fond of China and travel there annually.
- crumbshot 8y ago
  The US routinely makes a mockery of the rule of law, just look at all the people denied legal process, abducted and taken to black sites for torture during the 'War on Terror'. The US is not some shining beacon of justice and fairness, it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest.
  - adventured 8y ago
    > just look at all the people denied legal process Relying on a few references - precisely because it's not common - in a country of 330 million, does not support your claim. The reason cases of denied legal process get so much attention in the US, is because they're rare. The reason a million detained Muslims in China isn't causing an uproar in the Muslim world, is because they know China has no protections for human rights and it does no good to protest. Contrast that with the protests regarding Abu Ghraib. Why was that an massive, international embarrassment for the US, if it's just the same as China? > it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest Saying it, does not make it so. The fact that that is incorrect, is precisely why so many people - of such diverse backgrounds - want to immigrate to the US and have for the past century. Much of Latin America would immediately immigrate if given the option, because of how corrupt the majority of Latin America is (see: how low Latin American nations rank [1]). The US routinely ranks high among nations on the quality of its justice system, the independence of its judicial system and its protection of property rights. That has been true for a very long time. Transparency International ranks China #88 on corruption and Russia #138, to name two prominent examples. Denmark is ranked #1 for lowest corruption, New Zealand is #2. The US ranks comparable to France and Japan. So your premise is there's no difference between the US, Denmark, New Zealand, France, Japan, China and Russia - since everyone is just as corrupt and capcricious as all the rest. Of course that's not true. The US is a liberal democracy with vast protections for human rights. China and Russia, as contrasts, are regressive dictatorships with few protections for human rights. [1] https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018 https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018
lern_too_spel 8y ago
The difference is that the NSA doesn't have far reaching powers to spy on US citizens (or foreign citizens in the US), while China has repeatedly hacked the US.
beams_of_light 8y ago
No, it's not just about who's spying on you - it's about who will have the ability to take down your infrastructure when push comes to shove. Chinese technology in our critical infrastructure or defense systems is obvious attack surface.

_iyig 8y ago

If the NSA spies on your text messages as opposed to the CCP, you (and your family) are much less likely to be imprisoned, tortured, or killed on the basis of your religious or political beliefs.

izacus 8y ago
Systemic harassment, no fly lists and personal surveillance of muslim people happening in USA makes your sentence a joke.
- leereeves 8y ago
  While those are wrong, they aren't: > imprisoned, tortured, or killed on the basis of your religious or political beliefs You've entirely failed to refute the parent comment.
  - iforgotpassword 8y ago
    Uuh so China is doing drone bombings in the US then or how's that gonna work?
    - hannasanarion 8y ago
      No, they're doing bombings, massacres, and death camps inside their own country.
      - iforgotpassword 8y ago
        Yes so how does that affect someone in the US or Europe?
- product50 8y ago
  Why don't you go to China and try calling their President by names and see what happens to you? Are you really serious comparing the two countries? Surveillance of Muslims vs. China kidnapping Uyghurs and putting them in re-education camps? Are you even seriously comparing the two countries here?
  - monksy 8y ago
    The correct response to that is "winnie the pooh" not "names" .

threeseed 8y ago

Does the US have: (a) Social credit system which centres around facial recognition of the entire population ? (b) Reeducation camps where tens of millions of Muslims, Uyghurs, dissidents, journalists etc are sent to based on surveillance of their online activity ? (c) Free reign to do whatever they want unfettered by any judicial or political oversight mechanisms ? (d) Companies and the government stealing intellectual property on an industrial scale ? The answer to all of those is no. US is a democracy with checks and balances provided by Congress, Journalists and the Courts. China has none of these.

throwaway6oo 8y ago
You are taking about things that you have inside USA (while conviniantly forgetting about Guatanamo bay, CIA transport planes,...). On the other side, USA is digitally spying on whole world for at least 40 years (search for Echelon). It was stated USA is doing it the same. Actually USA is far worse and I would gladly take Huawei network equip ment - over the time, chinese are becoming more trustworthy than USA.
izacus 8y ago
Pretty much answer to all of this is yes - terrorist blacklists powered by cameras and surveillance in public, Guantanamo Bay with prisoners without due process and oversight, police killing black people without punishment and military industrial complex lobbying established government all exist. From the outside, USA with its more noticably overbearing propaganda or China with its disregard for US set morality don't seem that hugely different. These moral arguments from US side are laughable for anyone who was sitting on the other side of diplomatic table. Lesson here is that we (as in europeans) need to get rid of dependency on both of those nations for core services.
- leereeves 8y ago
  The US isn't perfect, but the events you're talking about are in no way comparable to imprisoning a million Uighurs in camps. Or executing Falun Gong practitioners and harvesting their organs. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

outlace 8y ago

We can argue about which country has the worst spying record, but there's a fundamental difference between a country where you can be imprisoned for years for merely sharing a web post that is critical of the government and one where you can stand in front of the White House with signs calling the president an idiot racist and nothing bad happens. Genuine rule of law and a truly independent judiciary make all the difference. I say this as someone who is quite fond of China and travel there annually.

crumbshot 8y ago
The US routinely makes a mockery of the rule of law, just look at all the people denied legal process, abducted and taken to black sites for torture during the 'War on Terror'. The US is not some shining beacon of justice and fairness, it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest.
- adventured 8y ago
  > just look at all the people denied legal process Relying on a few references - precisely because it's not common - in a country of 330 million, does not support your claim. The reason cases of denied legal process get so much attention in the US, is because they're rare. The reason a million detained Muslims in China isn't causing an uproar in the Muslim world, is because they know China has no protections for human rights and it does no good to protest. Contrast that with the protests regarding Abu Ghraib. Why was that an massive, international embarrassment for the US, if it's just the same as China? > it's just as corrupt and capricious as all the rest Saying it, does not make it so. The fact that that is incorrect, is precisely why so many people - of such diverse backgrounds - want to immigrate to the US and have for the past century. Much of Latin America would immediately immigrate if given the option, because of how corrupt the majority of Latin America is (see: how low Latin American nations rank [1]). The US routinely ranks high among nations on the quality of its justice system, the independence of its judicial system and its protection of property rights. That has been true for a very long time. Transparency International ranks China #88 on corruption and Russia #138, to name two prominent examples. Denmark is ranked #1 for lowest corruption, New Zealand is #2. The US ranks comparable to France and Japan. So your premise is there's no difference between the US, Denmark, New Zealand, France, Japan, China and Russia - since everyone is just as corrupt and capcricious as all the rest. Of course that's not true. The US is a liberal democracy with vast protections for human rights. China and Russia, as contrasts, are regressive dictatorships with few protections for human rights. [1] https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018 https://www.transparency.org/cpi2018

lern_too_spel 8y ago

The difference is that the NSA doesn't have far reaching powers to spy on US citizens (or foreign citizens in the US), while China has repeatedly hacked the US.

beams_of_light 8y ago

No, it's not just about who's spying on you - it's about who will have the ability to take down your infrastructure when push comes to shove. Chinese technology in our critical infrastructure or defense systems is obvious attack surface.