5 ms·

> understanding data structures and algorithms doesn't necessarily correlate to one's ability to identify security vulnerabilities. No, but it does suggest tha

> understanding data structures and algorithms doesn't necessarily correlate to one's ability to identify security vulnerabilities. No, but it does suggest that you're likely capable of learning security work. Just like your data structure and algorithm knowledge didn't come for free, nobody is born knowing how to find security problems. You need to work for it.

HeavenBanned 8y ago
What's a way to learn security work? Genuinely curious.
- badfrog 8y ago
  I'm not a security expert by any means, but based on learning other niche-ish areas of technology, the following probably exist for security: * Books * MOOCs * Lecture notes, slides, and assignments from university courses * Subreddits, Quora topics, etc * Prominent community members you can follow on Twitter
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    In my experience, security has much fewer of those resources. Most of the information seems to shared through word-of-mouth, conference presentations, and blog posts.
    - lucb1e 8y ago
      Much of the information is also just RTFM. I don't think it's a stretch to say that security is a lifestyle: if I read the documentation of an API, more often than not I'll wonder if something can be abused for something. Or when trying to register for health insurance, the password field required special characters, so I set my password generator to include them, after which the form broke, and so I investigated and found that I could inject scripts there. It's just stuff I come across when I'm not even trying. Word of mouth, chat groups where things are shared, conferences, blog posts... yes, those are resources. But it's also just a whole lot of curiosity and poking at systems.
      - Izmaki 8y ago
        And experience. Knowing what to look for, even if it's just the HTML source of a web page, is rather important in the first steps of breaking the system. How do you learn what to look for? Well, certainly there are blog posts and even playgrounds with virtual systems and components one can have a go at.
  - lucb1e 8y ago
    Actual security expert^W dude here. On the topic of breaking/hacking things, I never read a book, followed a MOOC, or studied university course material, and I doubt most of my peers do that either. Which is not to say I don't use those resources, but they're for other topics like software development, system administration, or non-fiction books like Predictably Irrational[1]. The only security-relevant subreddit I'm subscribed to is /r/netsec, and sometimes interesting things come by, but I don't use it a lot. HN is more useful for (context about / following) big security events than netsec. Perhaps /r/sysadmin is also fair to mention, but that's more to see what's hot in sysadmin world (and get their perspective on breaking security news) than to learn about security. Instead of Quora, I use the IT Security StackExchange site[2]: answering questions makes me dive into topics just a little deeper than what I already knew and I always come out knowing a few more useful details. The site has some really hardcore security people who are typically find any mistakes in your answers as well. I'd recommend that site a lot for learning, whether that is through asking or answering questions (though with answering, perhaps it's more to deepen knowledge than to get into the field), or even if it's just for getting correct answers to security questions like "What are the optimal WPA3 settings for a home router" or something. So then, how does one get into security? Most people I know just started breaking things and noticed that others usually found it useful if we told them about it. After a while you'll have seen most of the common issues. Add to that some more structured materials like the OWASP top 10 and similar resources, and now I feel fairly confident that my reports are not just a haphazard collection of what I came across in previous years, but that I can actually give a reasonably complete assessment of the security of a system. I don't know why the security field doesn't have as many structured resources as other fields. Maybe the field is just too small compared to how fast it moves? Or maybe security people are, y'know, as breakers of other people's systems, as hackers, as those who outsmart the people who made the system... maybe we want to be different and not follow norms by studying the normal way? And most of us just started doing it for fun before it became a profession, so few people would use the resources even if they were there? I'm just speculating. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational [2] https://security.stackexchange.com https://security.stackexchange.com
- czr 8y ago
  Apart from the standard methods mentioned by other commenters, you can also play CTFs (and read past CTF writeups). The problems in CTFs are not necessarily reflective of the vulnerabilities in modern software, but it's a fun way to learn a lot of the tools and mindset involved in real security research.
- ChrisSD 8y ago
  In addition to other methods, never underestimate the importance of breaking stuff for yourself. Teenagers are often very good at this (partly because they have the free time and they don't care about the consequences). Beside that lower level knowledge of how computer systems work is always worth studying up on.
- joshuakcockrell 8y ago
  One of the best introductions to the field is going through overthewire’s bandit vulnerability games. https://overthewire.org/wargames/bandit/ https://overthewire.org/wargames/bandit/ They have 30+ levels where you ssh into a server and attempt to find some type of vulnerability. They start out very easy and get tough quick. It’s very eye opening to see the types of exploits that exist. They also have a set of challenges aimed at serverside web security. http://overthewire.org/wargames/natas/ http://overthewire.org/wargames/natas/ I went through the web challenges last year and they helped a ton in my web dev roles.
  - jscholes 8y ago
    > One of the best introductions to the field is going through overthewire’s bandit vulnerability games. Never knew about these. I'm visually impaired, so a text-based system like this appeals. Thanks!
  - ddebernardy 8y ago
    > One of the best introductions to the field is going through overthewire’s bandit vulnerability games. Out of curiosity I visited your first link and played the first dozen+ levels. It's just been bash-fu and occasional man reading/googling. Judging by the subsequent level instructions I went through, there didn't seem to be much more in there. I'm like, if you really want to learn more about shell commands, there are man pages. Admittedly, a game is arguably a good way to tutor a lazy reader. Still, did I miss anything else in there by not finishing the game?
    - awodol 8y ago
      bandit is just the beginner intro to shell series that is meant for pure beginners to unix, you didnt miss anything. All of the other games on there are actual wargames to learn about security
- rootsudo 8y ago
  Ironically, it's being curious on how to break something or how something that is for "A" can be used for "XYZ." Though what you hear about more often are misconfigurations -- which, are valid, but that's more on execution vs truly finding something wrong.
- mettamage 8y ago
  I followed a couple of courses at the VU University Amsterdam. I'll tell you what I've learned about security, it gives you a couple of terms to type into a search engine at least. There are 3 courses they give for it: 1) Computer & Network Security 2) Binary and Malware Analysis 3) Hardware Security The lower level it gets, the better they are at it. Each course costs 1200 euro's for non-EU students. I recommend it. I learned about (in random order): - Rowhammer (I hope memory vendors will fix this) - Cache attacks (I hope Intel will fix this) - Stack smashing - String buffer trickery in C - Spoofing IPs - DNS cache poisoning - Using machine learning to fingerprint things - Dictionary attacks for password cracking - Portscanning - Cold boot attacks - Spotting vulnerabilities in C code - Reverse engineering binaries with IDA Pro and knowing x86 and x64 assembly - Taint analysis - Instrumenting binaries with PIN - Using SMT solvers to crack passwords in binaries
  - lordnacho 8y ago
    Is it remote and in English?
    - mettamage 8y ago
      No, you have to be there.
- ddeokbokki 8y ago
  I learned a tremendous amount from Root-Me [1], it has a strong community and is _often_ updated with new challenges. 1: https://www.root-me.org/?lang=en https://www.root-me.org/?lang=en

HeavenBanned 8y ago

What's a way to learn security work? Genuinely curious.

badfrog 8y ago
I'm not a security expert by any means, but based on learning other niche-ish areas of technology, the following probably exist for security: * Books * MOOCs * Lecture notes, slides, and assignments from university courses * Subreddits, Quora topics, etc * Prominent community members you can follow on Twitter
- saagarjha 8y ago
  In my experience, security has much fewer of those resources. Most of the information seems to shared through word-of-mouth, conference presentations, and blog posts.
  - lucb1e 8y ago
    Much of the information is also just RTFM. I don't think it's a stretch to say that security is a lifestyle: if I read the documentation of an API, more often than not I'll wonder if something can be abused for something. Or when trying to register for health insurance, the password field required special characters, so I set my password generator to include them, after which the form broke, and so I investigated and found that I could inject scripts there. It's just stuff I come across when I'm not even trying. Word of mouth, chat groups where things are shared, conferences, blog posts... yes, those are resources. But it's also just a whole lot of curiosity and poking at systems.
    - Izmaki 8y ago
      And experience. Knowing what to look for, even if it's just the HTML source of a web page, is rather important in the first steps of breaking the system. How do you learn what to look for? Well, certainly there are blog posts and even playgrounds with virtual systems and components one can have a go at.
- lucb1e 8y ago
  Actual security expert^W dude here. On the topic of breaking/hacking things, I never read a book, followed a MOOC, or studied university course material, and I doubt most of my peers do that either. Which is not to say I don't use those resources, but they're for other topics like software development, system administration, or non-fiction books like Predictably Irrational[1]. The only security-relevant subreddit I'm subscribed to is /r/netsec, and sometimes interesting things come by, but I don't use it a lot. HN is more useful for (context about / following) big security events than netsec. Perhaps /r/sysadmin is also fair to mention, but that's more to see what's hot in sysadmin world (and get their perspective on breaking security news) than to learn about security. Instead of Quora, I use the IT Security StackExchange site[2]: answering questions makes me dive into topics just a little deeper than what I already knew and I always come out knowing a few more useful details. The site has some really hardcore security people who are typically find any mistakes in your answers as well. I'd recommend that site a lot for learning, whether that is through asking or answering questions (though with answering, perhaps it's more to deepen knowledge than to get into the field), or even if it's just for getting correct answers to security questions like "What are the optimal WPA3 settings for a home router" or something. So then, how does one get into security? Most people I know just started breaking things and noticed that others usually found it useful if we told them about it. After a while you'll have seen most of the common issues. Add to that some more structured materials like the OWASP top 10 and similar resources, and now I feel fairly confident that my reports are not just a haphazard collection of what I came across in previous years, but that I can actually give a reasonably complete assessment of the security of a system. I don't know why the security field doesn't have as many structured resources as other fields. Maybe the field is just too small compared to how fast it moves? Or maybe security people are, y'know, as breakers of other people's systems, as hackers, as those who outsmart the people who made the system... maybe we want to be different and not follow norms by studying the normal way? And most of us just started doing it for fun before it became a profession, so few people would use the resources even if they were there? I'm just speculating. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational [2] https://security.stackexchange.com https://security.stackexchange.com
czr 8y ago
Apart from the standard methods mentioned by other commenters, you can also play CTFs (and read past CTF writeups). The problems in CTFs are not necessarily reflective of the vulnerabilities in modern software, but it's a fun way to learn a lot of the tools and mindset involved in real security research.
ChrisSD 8y ago
In addition to other methods, never underestimate the importance of breaking stuff for yourself. Teenagers are often very good at this (partly because they have the free time and they don't care about the consequences). Beside that lower level knowledge of how computer systems work is always worth studying up on.
joshuakcockrell 8y ago
One of the best introductions to the field is going through overthewire’s bandit vulnerability games. https://overthewire.org/wargames/bandit/ https://overthewire.org/wargames/bandit/ They have 30+ levels where you ssh into a server and attempt to find some type of vulnerability. They start out very easy and get tough quick. It’s very eye opening to see the types of exploits that exist. They also have a set of challenges aimed at serverside web security. http://overthewire.org/wargames/natas/ http://overthewire.org/wargames/natas/ I went through the web challenges last year and they helped a ton in my web dev roles.
- jscholes 8y ago
  > One of the best introductions to the field is going through overthewire’s bandit vulnerability games. Never knew about these. I'm visually impaired, so a text-based system like this appeals. Thanks!
- ddebernardy 8y ago
  > One of the best introductions to the field is going through overthewire’s bandit vulnerability games. Out of curiosity I visited your first link and played the first dozen+ levels. It's just been bash-fu and occasional man reading/googling. Judging by the subsequent level instructions I went through, there didn't seem to be much more in there. I'm like, if you really want to learn more about shell commands, there are man pages. Admittedly, a game is arguably a good way to tutor a lazy reader. Still, did I miss anything else in there by not finishing the game?
  - awodol 8y ago
    bandit is just the beginner intro to shell series that is meant for pure beginners to unix, you didnt miss anything. All of the other games on there are actual wargames to learn about security
rootsudo 8y ago
Ironically, it's being curious on how to break something or how something that is for "A" can be used for "XYZ." Though what you hear about more often are misconfigurations -- which, are valid, but that's more on execution vs truly finding something wrong.
mettamage 8y ago
I followed a couple of courses at the VU University Amsterdam. I'll tell you what I've learned about security, it gives you a couple of terms to type into a search engine at least. There are 3 courses they give for it: 1) Computer & Network Security 2) Binary and Malware Analysis 3) Hardware Security The lower level it gets, the better they are at it. Each course costs 1200 euro's for non-EU students. I recommend it. I learned about (in random order): - Rowhammer (I hope memory vendors will fix this) - Cache attacks (I hope Intel will fix this) - Stack smashing - String buffer trickery in C - Spoofing IPs - DNS cache poisoning - Using machine learning to fingerprint things - Dictionary attacks for password cracking - Portscanning - Cold boot attacks - Spotting vulnerabilities in C code - Reverse engineering binaries with IDA Pro and knowing x86 and x64 assembly - Taint analysis - Instrumenting binaries with PIN - Using SMT solvers to crack passwords in binaries
- lordnacho 8y ago
  Is it remote and in English?
  - mettamage 8y ago
    No, you have to be there.
ddeokbokki 8y ago
I learned a tremendous amount from Root-Me [1], it has a strong community and is _often_ updated with new challenges. 1: https://www.root-me.org/?lang=en https://www.root-me.org/?lang=en