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Absolutely second that as a German as well. Disruption is desperately needed and I am glad that a 16 year old company kicks the German complacency out of busine

Absolutely second that as a German as well. Disruption is desperately needed and I am glad that a 16 year old company kicks the German complacency out of business. Reinvention? What sort of? They don't get software, they don't get new business models. That's why they stick to politics who should save their models - which is protectionism. Germany's car makers were never customer first. What kind of innovation did Germany establish besides ABS? The cars still drive forward, backwards and can turn around - AWESOME! This has been done for almost 100 years. Germany's car makers are great at marketing. "Drive a M5 and feel the power of 500+ horsepower on the Autobahn" - that's exactly why they are struggling with the idea of autonomous driving: how can you reinvent the story from being an Autobahn race car driver to calmness in your car with millions of other people? Same goes for Porsche: "Reinventing the classic" It still has enough HP to accelerate you from 0 to 100 km/h in roughly 4,2 seconds - and then comes Tesla and beats the sh*t out of Porsche without even hard work. Germany's car industry is like the National Rifle Association. They won't change without hard disruption. And in Germany it finally arrived.

paganel 8y ago
> What kind of innovation did Germany establish besides ABS? Not sure why you got downvoted, afaik the most important technological breakthroughs when it came to cars in Europe were made by the Italians (Fiat, mostly, but Alfa Romeo too), the French (the Citroen DS is one of the best technological products ever) and the Swedes (Volvo and its emphasis on security). Somehow the Germans navigated the ‘90s and early 2000s a little better, not sure exactly why (maybe because they invested in China earlier?), and that’s why right now they’re seen as the car companies to beat.
- ahartmetz 8y ago
  They have design and feel figured out. Somehow the rest of the world mostly doesn't produce cars with as nice interior and exterior design or that are as fun to drive.
- lazyjones 8y ago
  > afaik the most important technological breakthroughs when it came to cars in Europe were made by the Italians Carl Benz - invented and patented the first "motorcar" Gottfried Daimler - also independently built an automobile the same year as Benz. Siegfried Marcus - 131 patents, first petrol-powered vehicle. etc.
  - expertentipp 8y ago
    Many early automotive technological breakthroughs attributed to Germans are Czech or Austrian actually. It's the enormous power of German automotive industry which absorbs all relevant innovation, and washes off any bad flaws.
    - AnonymousPlanet 8y ago
      Which of the names listed are Czech or Austrian?
      - paganel 8y ago
        The Tatra case and VW copying their design is pretty well known, and when you’ve literally got Hitler pulling out strings for you then you cannot hide behind late-19 century inventions anymore. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_97#Resemblance_to_Volkswagen_KdF-Wagen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_97#Resemblance_to_Volk...
- mk89 8y ago
  Did you ever drive a German car (not necessarily a Mercedes, even a simple VW Polo) vs a non German car? Seriously, that's the reason. Quality. You can be as innovative as you wish, but if you are cheap and provide low quality products, that's what you get. Eventually someone is able to provide the same technology and then quality wins.
  - pps43 8y ago
    That was true for a while, but not any more. Now Japanese and even Korean car makers have better quality (if you compare vehicles of similar price).
  - greedo 8y ago
    My VW CC is not a quality car; it's got nice fit and finish, but it's probably the most unreliable car I've ever owned, and I say that having owned a Fiat Mirafiori in the 80's. My CC has chronic design flaws, assembly flaws, and leaves me on pins and needles when I think about having to rely on it for another 4 years.
xcvvv 8y ago
While there are probably horrible bureaucratic structures in Germany's car industry, I think this comment isn't quite fair. Mercedes and BMW are still very nice to drive in. The issue is more that German's generally don't believe in fads, and self-driving cars are one of them. I just don't want a self driving car, which takes away the last bit of fun of sitting in a metal box: Being in charge of where the damn box goes. Germans just have a higher bar for "innovation": It has to be useful.
- mpweiher 8y ago
  > I just don't want a self driving car Yeah, markets are different. In the US, manual transmissions are almost unheard of these days, in Germany they have a market share of >70% overall and >90% in small cars.
- ivan_gammel 8y ago
  >Germans just have a higher bar for "innovation": It has to be useful. Somehow they don't find credit cards useful and still pay a lot in cash, when the rest of the world already embraced wireless payments. :)
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    Alright then, has to be useful whilst not weaponising their lack of privacy. The rest of the world embraced wireless payments whilst Germans still have a realistic view of privacy impacts. Being at the tail end of that particular adoption curve may still be seen as a feature in Germany. :) I wish their view were a little more widespread.
  - fileeditview 8y ago
    I guess if the rest of the world "embraced" it it must be great? You can pay with credit card for practically anything in Germany. Besides that fact I personally really like to have the option to pay in cash. I don't want literally everything logged by my bank.
  - AdrianB1 8y ago
    They have historical reasons for that. Hard to understand if you don't have the background.
mpweiher 8y ago
> What kind of innovation did Germany establish besides ABS? How about: the car (Carl Benz)? And the motorcycle (Daimler)? All the common (and uncommon) engine types: Otto, Diesel, Wankel. More recently, always-on four wheel drive (Quattro). I am sure I am leaving out a ton of innovation in engine and drivetrain technologies. > Germany's car makers are great at marketing That's a fairly new development. German car companies were (and still are) very much engineering led. See, for example, Ferdinand Porsche or more recently Piëch. What you are describing is the US car industry, which has been absolutely marketing-dominated since at least the 50s. In fact, I'd argue that the current problems are, if anything, a result of the engineering-centeredness, which has a hard time dealing with disruptive innovation. A key feature of a disruptive innovation is that it is demonstrably worse than the incumbent, so engineers will dismiss it as "not good enough" and "toy", and be right. They just miss that there are new criteria, at which the new innovation beats the pants off the old. I am pretty sure that if you discuss the current situation with German automative engineers, they will be able to show to you very convincingly that electric cars are a joke, don't perform adequately and aren't even environmentally superior. And that electric cars and particularly self-driving cars are marketing gimmicks. But customer sentiment has shifted (marketing side) and technology and engineering will follow.
- asymmetric 8y ago
  > aren't even environmentally superior I’d be very curious to hear how the would argue for _that_.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    Lithium ion batteries are the combination of something that needs to be mined in the third world, with fuel shipped from across the world, combined with battery acid. Something like 20ml of that will kill you. It will also kill pretty much every plant and even most bacteria. When it doesn't melt down that is. Oh and their fuel, the electricity ? Mostly comes from coal power plants which, despite TRIPLE the efficientcy actually still managed to produce more CO2 ... Electrical cars are heavier because of the batteries, so in practice it's not quite triple the efficiency. Electrical cars are very environmentally friendly at the location they're used. On balance, they're probably about even or slightly worse than petrol cars. There's a simplification many economists argue for. In our modern world, price is a proxy for energy expenditure, which is what mostly matters when it comes to pollution. Therefore cheapest thing (measured over it's lifetime of course) is going to be the most environmentally friendly. This price takes many more things into account than any analysis ever will and therefore be more accurate. By that measure, electrical cars definitely lose by around a factor of 2 at the moment.

paganel 8y ago

> What kind of innovation did Germany establish besides ABS? Not sure why you got downvoted, afaik the most important technological breakthroughs when it came to cars in Europe were made by the Italians (Fiat, mostly, but Alfa Romeo too), the French (the Citroen DS is one of the best technological products ever) and the Swedes (Volvo and its emphasis on security). Somehow the Germans navigated the ‘90s and early 2000s a little better, not sure exactly why (maybe because they invested in China earlier?), and that’s why right now they’re seen as the car companies to beat.

ahartmetz 8y ago
They have design and feel figured out. Somehow the rest of the world mostly doesn't produce cars with as nice interior and exterior design or that are as fun to drive.
lazyjones 8y ago
> afaik the most important technological breakthroughs when it came to cars in Europe were made by the Italians Carl Benz - invented and patented the first "motorcar" Gottfried Daimler - also independently built an automobile the same year as Benz. Siegfried Marcus - 131 patents, first petrol-powered vehicle. etc.
- expertentipp 8y ago
  Many early automotive technological breakthroughs attributed to Germans are Czech or Austrian actually. It's the enormous power of German automotive industry which absorbs all relevant innovation, and washes off any bad flaws.
  - AnonymousPlanet 8y ago
    Which of the names listed are Czech or Austrian?
    - paganel 8y ago
      The Tatra case and VW copying their design is pretty well known, and when you’ve literally got Hitler pulling out strings for you then you cannot hide behind late-19 century inventions anymore. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_97#Resemblance_to_Volkswagen_KdF-Wagen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_97#Resemblance_to_Volk...
mk89 8y ago
Did you ever drive a German car (not necessarily a Mercedes, even a simple VW Polo) vs a non German car? Seriously, that's the reason. Quality. You can be as innovative as you wish, but if you are cheap and provide low quality products, that's what you get. Eventually someone is able to provide the same technology and then quality wins.
- pps43 8y ago
  That was true for a while, but not any more. Now Japanese and even Korean car makers have better quality (if you compare vehicles of similar price).
- greedo 8y ago
  My VW CC is not a quality car; it's got nice fit and finish, but it's probably the most unreliable car I've ever owned, and I say that having owned a Fiat Mirafiori in the 80's. My CC has chronic design flaws, assembly flaws, and leaves me on pins and needles when I think about having to rely on it for another 4 years.

xcvvv 8y ago

While there are probably horrible bureaucratic structures in Germany's car industry, I think this comment isn't quite fair. Mercedes and BMW are still very nice to drive in. The issue is more that German's generally don't believe in fads, and self-driving cars are one of them. I just don't want a self driving car, which takes away the last bit of fun of sitting in a metal box: Being in charge of where the damn box goes. Germans just have a higher bar for "innovation": It has to be useful.

mpweiher 8y ago
> I just don't want a self driving car Yeah, markets are different. In the US, manual transmissions are almost unheard of these days, in Germany they have a market share of >70% overall and >90% in small cars.
ivan_gammel 8y ago
>Germans just have a higher bar for "innovation": It has to be useful. Somehow they don't find credit cards useful and still pay a lot in cash, when the rest of the world already embraced wireless payments. :)
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Alright then, has to be useful whilst not weaponising their lack of privacy. The rest of the world embraced wireless payments whilst Germans still have a realistic view of privacy impacts. Being at the tail end of that particular adoption curve may still be seen as a feature in Germany. :) I wish their view were a little more widespread.
- fileeditview 8y ago
  I guess if the rest of the world "embraced" it it must be great? You can pay with credit card for practically anything in Germany. Besides that fact I personally really like to have the option to pay in cash. I don't want literally everything logged by my bank.
- AdrianB1 8y ago
  They have historical reasons for that. Hard to understand if you don't have the background.

mpweiher 8y ago

> What kind of innovation did Germany establish besides ABS? How about: the car (Carl Benz)? And the motorcycle (Daimler)? All the common (and uncommon) engine types: Otto, Diesel, Wankel. More recently, always-on four wheel drive (Quattro). I am sure I am leaving out a ton of innovation in engine and drivetrain technologies. > Germany's car makers are great at marketing That's a fairly new development. German car companies were (and still are) very much engineering led. See, for example, Ferdinand Porsche or more recently Piëch. What you are describing is the US car industry, which has been absolutely marketing-dominated since at least the 50s. In fact, I'd argue that the current problems are, if anything, a result of the engineering-centeredness, which has a hard time dealing with disruptive innovation. A key feature of a disruptive innovation is that it is demonstrably worse than the incumbent, so engineers will dismiss it as "not good enough" and "toy", and be right. They just miss that there are new criteria, at which the new innovation beats the pants off the old. I am pretty sure that if you discuss the current situation with German automative engineers, they will be able to show to you very convincingly that electric cars are a joke, don't perform adequately and aren't even environmentally superior. And that electric cars and particularly self-driving cars are marketing gimmicks. But customer sentiment has shifted (marketing side) and technology and engineering will follow.

asymmetric 8y ago
> aren't even environmentally superior I’d be very curious to hear how the would argue for _that_.
- candiodari 8y ago
  Lithium ion batteries are the combination of something that needs to be mined in the third world, with fuel shipped from across the world, combined with battery acid. Something like 20ml of that will kill you. It will also kill pretty much every plant and even most bacteria. When it doesn't melt down that is. Oh and their fuel, the electricity ? Mostly comes from coal power plants which, despite TRIPLE the efficientcy actually still managed to produce more CO2 ... Electrical cars are heavier because of the batteries, so in practice it's not quite triple the efficiency. Electrical cars are very environmentally friendly at the location they're used. On balance, they're probably about even or slightly worse than petrol cars. There's a simplification many economists argue for. In our modern world, price is a proxy for energy expenditure, which is what mostly matters when it comes to pollution. Therefore cheapest thing (measured over it's lifetime of course) is going to be the most environmentally friendly. This price takes many more things into account than any analysis ever will and therefore be more accurate. By that measure, electrical cars definitely lose by around a factor of 2 at the moment.