13 ms·

NYC Open Letter to Jeff Bezos

64 points by jger15 8y ago

perfmode 8y ago
No. Please, stop.
zajd 8y ago
How pathetic
chias 8y ago
This comment is not relevant to the content of the letter, but why on earth am I reading this letter in a low-res PNG?
- ihuman 8y ago
  Its a little bit easier to read if you hotlink to the image https://avc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019-03-01-NYTimes-Ad_Final-1126x2048.png https://avc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019-03-01-NYTime...
  - a012 8y ago
    It's weird they chose the image format, maybe it's because they want to show the signatures(?), instead of Portable Document Format.
    - chias 8y ago
      But there aren't even any signatures on that page. HTML is perfectly capable of displaying text with some bolded elements in four columns. Really all that providing this in image format accomplishes is: 1. makes it blurry on high-res monitors 2. makes it so that it can't be zoomed effectively 3. makes it so that it can't be searched 4. makes it so that it can't be indexed by search engines 5. makes it so that it can't be copy/pasted easily 6. makes it cost exponentially more data to transfer
joemaller1 8y ago
Opportunity knocks only once.
Loughla 8y ago
So that $28 billion in tax revenue they talk about. How does that jive with all of the statements that Amazon paid $0 in tax through savvy use of the laws? Ignorance? Wishful thinking? Marketing? I'm honestly not trying to be political, just wondering where they're getting that from.
- bobcostas55 8y ago
  Amazon pays $0 corporate income tax. They pay huge amounts of other taxes.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    Is there a citation for this that does not lead back to that probably-biased ITEP article? Edit: clarification, since it seems my question as misinterpreted. Is there a citation for the $0 in federal income tax?
    - Loughla 8y ago
      This is my question as well.
    - gimmeThaBeet 8y ago
      Their financial statements show they provisioned $1.2 B in income taxes worldwide for 2018, I suppose from that narrow perspective you have to define 'plenty'. Their effective tax rate seems like it's in the 10% range? I think it'd be difficult to measure their employee tax footprint, I haven't been able to find good numbers on that, a Fermi estimate makes their numbers seem plausible if they went according to plan. https://ir.aboutamazon.com/static-files/ce3b13a9-4bf1-4388-89a0-e4bd4abd07b8 https://ir.aboutamazon.com/static-files/ce3b13a9-4bf1-4388-8...
    - credit_guy 8y ago
      Not the OP, but here's a Bloomberg article about this [1]. It has a bit of an incendiary tone. Later Bloomberg published an editorial [2] explaining that actually there's nothing scandalous about the zero federal tax rate; it is due to a difference between tax accounting and GAAP accounting. For tax purposes deferred equity compensation is considered to be out-the-door the moment it is granted, for GAAP purposes it's out-the-door the moment it vests. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/tax-law-didn-t-help-amazon-pay-zero-in-2018-it-was-just-savvy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/tax-law-d... [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-26/amazon-s-vanishing-tax-bill-isn-t-a-scandal https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-26/amazon...
ciamac 8y ago
NYC resident here. If Amazon wants to come to NYC, great, but why do they need corporate welfare including $500M in cash? We do not need them here, and they should pay full freight like everyone else (including Google, which is buying whole city blocks without second thought and with no handouts). This is a terrible back room deal and crony capitalism.
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  > they should pay full freight like everyone else "Everyone else" would have received the same breaks for that location and scale of project (less the $500MM you already mentioned). > including Google, which is buying whole city blocks without second thought and with no handouts Is there evidence for this, or is it just speculation based on silence (because Google is smart enough to keep their mouth shut and not start patronizing national dog-and-pony shows)?
  - jdsully 8y ago
    > "Everyone else" would have received the same breaks for that location and scale of project (less the $500MM you already mentioned). Amazon left the impression with their year long spectacle they were getting a special deal. They really have nobody to blame but themselves.
    - vonmoltke 8y ago
      Both that and Amazon not actually needing any assistance do not excuse the constant misinformation being repeated about this situation.
  - the_gastropod 8y ago
    It would be public information if they did receive any tax incentives. As far as I understand, Google, Facebook, and Amazon's already existing 5,000 NYC jobs have been achieved the good old fashioned way, sans bribery.
    - 8y ago
lenticular 8y ago
If there's one silver lining to this HQ2 spectacle, it seems to have really soured a lot of folks on handouts to large corporations over often illusory or exaggerated promises of jobs and investments. We've been through this in Seattle ad nauseum with both Boeing and Amazon. Wisconsin is currently learning an even harsher lesson with Foxconn. Most recently, Amazon threatened to pull out of a large skyscraper project if the head tax went through[0]. It didn't, and a few days ago they announced that they would not be moving into the building anyway. Even if you are a small-government libertarian, you should be opposed to these policies, as they are blatant handouts to powerful players. Small- and medium-sized businesses don't get this kind of treatment. This is a race to the bottom among states and municipalities. It is oligarchical, crony capitalism. [0] https://www.geekwire.com/2019/amazon-backs-massive-seattle-office-tower-questions-swirl-growth-plans/ https://www.geekwire.com/2019/amazon-backs-massive-seattle-o...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- anth_anm 8y ago
  > It didn't, and a few days ago they announced that they would not be moving into the building anyway. It did, after months of debate and planning. Amazon and a few others got it scrapped almost instantly. > It is oligarchical, crony capitalism. Our society is built to fuel the interests of the wealthy. It's just capitalism. No special modifiers required.
triplewipeass 8y ago
The folks who have signed this open letter don't represent average New Yorkers. I live in New York, yet no one ever asked me how I felt about this Amazon thing. This should have been put to a popular referendum. Present the people with three options: 1. Invite Amazon to NYC for free. 2. Invite Amazon to NYC with subsidies. 3. Do nothing. My gut tells me most people would have voted (1) as an affirmation that Amazon is ultimately free to come to NYC or not, with or without the subsidies.
- lbacaj 8y ago
  One is not option though right? That one is and has always been on the table is my understanding. The options are two and three and I also live in NYC and I would have voted for 2. It makes no sense what’s happened with this thing, while Amazon has some fault by making a spectacle of all this, NY politicians believing they are “saving” us deserve the bulk of the blame.
  - triplewipeass 8y ago
    (1) is a great option to have on this type of ballot because it'll signal that NYers really do want Amazon to do business here. If most people voted to "do nothing", that'd be a strong signal that they just don't care about Amazon.
- denzil_correa 8y ago
  > 1. Invite Amazon to NYC for free. 2. Invite Amazon to NYC with subsidies. 3. Do nothing. The options you list mentions no implications and therefore, you'd get responses where each individual will vote for what they think the implications are. This might lead to people voting for misleading options(for example, Brexit). One way to incorporate that is to ask for people's feedback on the implications. In such a model, you do not ask the final question but post the down the sets of implications posed as a question. For ex, Q1 : On a scale of 1-5, what do you think about XYZ? etc. The city council can have a discussion about these questions before heading to vote. You then give these questions to the people and solicit answers. Once you get the answers, you compile it and discuss how these answers could be addressed. It's a cardinal sin to reduce complex multi-objective optimization into a simple Yes or No question based on popular vote.
yaya69 8y ago
Waaaah
CzarnyZiutek 8y ago
NYC > AMAZON
the_gastropod 8y ago
This is such gross crony capitalism. It drives me nuts the uncritical repetition that Amazon's going to "bring 25,000 jobs" to NYC. As if the tech industry wasn't already hyper-competitive in NYC. Unemployment for tech workers is nigh non-existent. There are already a surplus of jobs. We don't need this. Google didn't need this for their workforce expansion in NYC. Facebook didn't need it. And hell, Amazon didn't need it for their 5,000 employees already in NYC.
cagenut 8y ago
as if this whole processes hasn't been gross enough, do they think this boot-licking after the fact is going to curry some favor?
- cabaalis 8y ago
  Probably more a message to some politicians than to amazon. The political divide in this country is insurmountable. Just listen to Ben Shapiro's opinion on events, and then NPR's. Stark, polar opposites. It is impossible for the average American to take an informed position on something in so polarized a climate.
  - badfrog 8y ago
    > Probably more a message to some politicians than to amazon. And to donors.
  - anth_anm 8y ago
    > Just listen to Ben Shapiro's opinion on events I'd rather shoot myself > and then NPR I'd rather just sit in silence staring at a wall.
libeclipse 8y ago
> pplease sir, can i have some more :(
booleandilemma 8y ago
Signed, the vocal minority.
- badfrog 8y ago
  Incorrect. > The result: 56 percent of voters statewide approved, while 36 percent didn’t. > In New York City, 58 percent of registered voters backed the plan, while 35 percent were opposed. https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-want-amazons-hq2-in-queens-poll/ https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-want-a...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
temuze 8y ago
Thank you, Fred. The amount of misinformation around this issue has been remarkable. 1) No you can't just say "let's spend that $3B on fixing the subway". This money comes from tax rebates. It means that you only get this $3B to give away when you get more tax revenue. 2) This wasn't some "backroom deal". The NDAs were a stipulation in Amazon's competition meant to prevent bidding wars. If cities could react to other cities, it would have created an escalating race to the bottom. Ironically, Amazon probably did this to avoid bad press. Go figure. 3) This wouldn't have put more strain on the subway. During rush hour, trains to Manhattan are packed, but trains to the outer boroughs are empty. This would have allowed NYC to step away from the high-maintenance hub and spoke model which strains the MTA. Source: the New York State Budget Director's statement https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-... --- Let's do some back of the envelope math. What's 25k (minimum number of jobs) * 150k (the average salary) * 11% (income tax for NY state + NYC)? 412M. That means that $3B would be paid off from new income taxes alone over ~7 years. That's not even considering: - State / city corporate tax - The new taxable income that would go to local businesses - The effect it would have on increasing taxable income for other tech workers in the city So yes - this was still a really good deal.
- badfrog 8y ago
  The amount of people loudly misunderstanding #1 really frustrates me.
  - jhauris 8y ago
    I think calling tax incentives subsidies is really confusing and leads to that misunderstanding. Maybe that's the purpose of using that language?
    - badfrog 8y ago
      Good point. Was it the media who started using the word subsidies for this?
idbentley 8y ago
I just don't understand why this conversation seems to be dominated by financial discussion. The main problem that many NYs had with the Amazon deal was dilution of our culture. Dumping 25,000 high earning employees into a complex and vibrant city is following San Francisco into folly. They probably oversell the economic benefit, and it's pretty foul the way a corporation can push around politicians. But the bottom line is, these jobs wouldn't go to existing New Yorkers in large part, and that makes the economic benefit to New Yorkers thing difficult to reason about.
- jpochtar 8y ago
  Do you... live in New York? I don't mean to be rude but you say "our" culture can't handle 25,000 high earning employees. 25,000 new high earners would be utterly unnoticed in the sea of Wall St.-ers. Honestly I think it'd improve the high-earner culture here if anything...
  - idbentley 8y ago
    I live in Brooklyn. In lower Manhattan they might be unnoticed, but that is not New York. Queens, is not Manhattan. You're talking about a major gentrification event. Can't handle is bad wording, but it would seriously exacerbate the wealth distribution problem here, which is already the worst in the country.
jgowdy 8y ago
It's sad that people sit here and beat their chest about how wrong Amazon is without looking at the other side. Amazon doesn't owe you jobs, tax revenue, or anything else. The discounts are reductions in the amount of money they would owe local and state governments IF they moved their location there. Since they aren't obligated to move their business there, they don't owe you that money. That's not your tax discount money to spend on other things, it's their tax discount money that they no longer potentially owe you. The underlying flaw of all of this is that Amazon should "be a good corporate citizen" (do what we want with their money), that tax credits are made of money otherwise spendable by governments (when in fact they're otherwise spendable by the corporation, because it's their money until they owe the tax debt), and that we should be able to beat and shame billionaires into giving us their money and providing these opportunities. Good luck with that strategy, but I think it's unwise. So while the college students can proudly stand there and talk about how they won with their ideals, the people who would actually benefit from it (families, struggling people who could use additional services paid for by additional tax revenue) are given not the benefits but the warm and fuzzy feeling that the collective nose has been cut off to spite the face.
- anth_anm 8y ago
  > Amazon doesn't owe you jobs, tax revenue, or anything else. They don't owe anyone jobs. They hire people to do work, they make money off that work. That is how this works. Job creators are not noble or good or generous merely because they create jobs. It is a self-serving act. They owe tax revenue on profits earned. > that we should be able to beat and shame billionaires into giving us their money and providing these opportunities We should be able to do that. Exterminating the billionaire class (by taking their money) would be a great thing for society.
  - MockObject 8y ago
    > Exterminating the billionaire class (by taking their money) would be a great thing for society. I suppose a class of actual slaves would be a great thing for society, too. It's easy when you define slaves, or billionaires, as being outside society and therefore subject to depredation. Fortunately, advances in the theory of human rights as extending to all people have put an end to such thinking.
anth_anm 8y ago
A way that works for everyone? Sure. Amazon comes in. They don't get any tax breaks. They do business and make money and pay taxes. NY actually uses those taxes for things people need.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
Question: How much is this computer? Answer: $1186 Question: If I buy 100 of them can you give me an x% discount? That's what Amazon did with the elected NY leaders. If I bring 25,000+ employees that might generate as much as $28 BILLION in taxes, can we get $3 billion in discounts? If we don't get the $3 Billion in rebates you will NOT be getting the $28 Billion in taxes. It was a yes or no.
pteredactyl 8y ago
This is nice. But I don't know why Amazon would want to do business in New York. Or California, for that matter. These states' policymakers are hostile to business in the form of taxes and regulations. Cuomo himself said 'America was never great'.
- krapp 8y ago
  >These states' policymakers are hostile to business in the form of taxes and regulations. All states collect taxes and have laws and regulations, so I guess they're all "hostile to business." >Cuomo himself said 'America was never great'. I don't see what relevance that should have to Amazon's tax strategy, but if you think Amazon should only do business in pro-Trump areas, you should probably look into Jeff Bezos' politics first.
  - pteredactyl 8y ago
    Agreed, all states have taxes. But different states have different policies and regulations. For example, with individuals, Washington State does not charge income tax but has a sales tax. On the other hand, California has a state income tax, along with a sales tax. So you can see, tax policy is not binary. Some states are more favorable for individuals, and by extensions, businesses. - As far as the quoted local politicians comments, it is important to understand their mindset when potentially doing business in their state. For example, I'd want to know if they sounded entitled, naive, or arrogant when it comes to business (or anything for that matter)? Do they think business owes them something for breathing the air, for example? Do they hold a world view where there are bad guys, good guys, and nothing in between? I could go on, but personally, Cuomo's comments (and actions) would make me think twice about doing business in his state.
throwawaysea 8y ago
Let's not forget, that of the $3B in subsidies, only $505M was a capital grant specific to Amazon, itself tied to Amazon investing $3.6B (see https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de-blasio-announce-amazon-selects-long-island-city-new-corporate https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de...). The rest of that $3B figure was from _existing_ programs that are also available to other companies, should they meet the eligibility requirements. The Excelsior program at the NY state level made up $1.2B. The other bits are ICAP and REAP, which are NYC programs. The city projected that Amazon would be eligible for $897M from REAP and $386M from ICAP through 2038. I say 'projected' since AFAIK, these are incrementally granted credits based on what is incrementally delivered by the employer. The city/state projected 107,000 total direct and indirect jobs, over $14 billion in new tax revenue for the State and a net of $13.5 billion in City tax revenue over the next 25 years. And $186 billion in Gross State Product for the New York State economy over the initial 25 years. This was a tremendously positive deal for NY/NYC and despite multiple polls showing majority support among constituents for the deal, it got tanked by a vocal minority of far-left socialist activists/politicians. Governments and companies need to develop a stronger spine, ignore the social media outrage machine, and learn to sift out/ignore loud voices who have the time to engage in a visible/disruptive manner (which incorrectly skews opinion away from silently-held opinions that are equally valid).
shmooth 8y ago
This shit is gd insane Fuck amazon

64 points by jger15 8y ago

perfmode 8y ago

No. Please, stop.

zajd 8y ago

How pathetic

chias 8y ago

This comment is not relevant to the content of the letter, but why on earth am I reading this letter in a low-res PNG?

ihuman 8y ago
Its a little bit easier to read if you hotlink to the image https://avc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019-03-01-NYTimes-Ad_Final-1126x2048.png https://avc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2019-03-01-NYTime...
- a012 8y ago
  It's weird they chose the image format, maybe it's because they want to show the signatures(?), instead of Portable Document Format.
  - chias 8y ago
    But there aren't even any signatures on that page. HTML is perfectly capable of displaying text with some bolded elements in four columns. Really all that providing this in image format accomplishes is: 1. makes it blurry on high-res monitors 2. makes it so that it can't be zoomed effectively 3. makes it so that it can't be searched 4. makes it so that it can't be indexed by search engines 5. makes it so that it can't be copy/pasted easily 6. makes it cost exponentially more data to transfer

joemaller1 8y ago

Opportunity knocks only once.

Loughla 8y ago

So that $28 billion in tax revenue they talk about. How does that jive with all of the statements that Amazon paid $0 in tax through savvy use of the laws? Ignorance? Wishful thinking? Marketing? I'm honestly not trying to be political, just wondering where they're getting that from.

bobcostas55 8y ago
Amazon pays $0 corporate income tax. They pay huge amounts of other taxes.
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  Is there a citation for this that does not lead back to that probably-biased ITEP article? Edit: clarification, since it seems my question as misinterpreted. Is there a citation for the $0 in federal income tax?
  - Loughla 8y ago
    This is my question as well.
  - gimmeThaBeet 8y ago
    Their financial statements show they provisioned $1.2 B in income taxes worldwide for 2018, I suppose from that narrow perspective you have to define 'plenty'. Their effective tax rate seems like it's in the 10% range? I think it'd be difficult to measure their employee tax footprint, I haven't been able to find good numbers on that, a Fermi estimate makes their numbers seem plausible if they went according to plan. https://ir.aboutamazon.com/static-files/ce3b13a9-4bf1-4388-89a0-e4bd4abd07b8 https://ir.aboutamazon.com/static-files/ce3b13a9-4bf1-4388-8...
  - credit_guy 8y ago
    Not the OP, but here's a Bloomberg article about this [1]. It has a bit of an incendiary tone. Later Bloomberg published an editorial [2] explaining that actually there's nothing scandalous about the zero federal tax rate; it is due to a difference between tax accounting and GAAP accounting. For tax purposes deferred equity compensation is considered to be out-the-door the moment it is granted, for GAAP purposes it's out-the-door the moment it vests. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/tax-law-didn-t-help-amazon-pay-zero-in-2018-it-was-just-savvy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-22/tax-law-d... [2]https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-26/amazon-s-vanishing-tax-bill-isn-t-a-scandal https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-26/amazon...

ciamac 8y ago

NYC resident here. If Amazon wants to come to NYC, great, but why do they need corporate welfare including $500M in cash? We do not need them here, and they should pay full freight like everyone else (including Google, which is buying whole city blocks without second thought and with no handouts). This is a terrible back room deal and crony capitalism.

vonmoltke 8y ago
> they should pay full freight like everyone else "Everyone else" would have received the same breaks for that location and scale of project (less the $500MM you already mentioned). > including Google, which is buying whole city blocks without second thought and with no handouts Is there evidence for this, or is it just speculation based on silence (because Google is smart enough to keep their mouth shut and not start patronizing national dog-and-pony shows)?
- jdsully 8y ago
  > "Everyone else" would have received the same breaks for that location and scale of project (less the $500MM you already mentioned). Amazon left the impression with their year long spectacle they were getting a special deal. They really have nobody to blame but themselves.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    Both that and Amazon not actually needing any assistance do not excuse the constant misinformation being repeated about this situation.
- the_gastropod 8y ago
  It would be public information if they did receive any tax incentives. As far as I understand, Google, Facebook, and Amazon's already existing 5,000 NYC jobs have been achieved the good old fashioned way, sans bribery.
  - 8y ago

lenticular 8y ago

If there's one silver lining to this HQ2 spectacle, it seems to have really soured a lot of folks on handouts to large corporations over often illusory or exaggerated promises of jobs and investments. We've been through this in Seattle ad nauseum with both Boeing and Amazon. Wisconsin is currently learning an even harsher lesson with Foxconn. Most recently, Amazon threatened to pull out of a large skyscraper project if the head tax went through[0]. It didn't, and a few days ago they announced that they would not be moving into the building anyway. Even if you are a small-government libertarian, you should be opposed to these policies, as they are blatant handouts to powerful players. Small- and medium-sized businesses don't get this kind of treatment. This is a race to the bottom among states and municipalities. It is oligarchical, crony capitalism. [0] https://www.geekwire.com/2019/amazon-backs-massive-seattle-office-tower-questions-swirl-growth-plans/ https://www.geekwire.com/2019/amazon-backs-massive-seattle-o...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
anth_anm 8y ago
> It didn't, and a few days ago they announced that they would not be moving into the building anyway. It did, after months of debate and planning. Amazon and a few others got it scrapped almost instantly. > It is oligarchical, crony capitalism. Our society is built to fuel the interests of the wealthy. It's just capitalism. No special modifiers required.

triplewipeass 8y ago

The folks who have signed this open letter don't represent average New Yorkers. I live in New York, yet no one ever asked me how I felt about this Amazon thing. This should have been put to a popular referendum. Present the people with three options: 1. Invite Amazon to NYC for free. 2. Invite Amazon to NYC with subsidies. 3. Do nothing. My gut tells me most people would have voted (1) as an affirmation that Amazon is ultimately free to come to NYC or not, with or without the subsidies.

lbacaj 8y ago
One is not option though right? That one is and has always been on the table is my understanding. The options are two and three and I also live in NYC and I would have voted for 2. It makes no sense what’s happened with this thing, while Amazon has some fault by making a spectacle of all this, NY politicians believing they are “saving” us deserve the bulk of the blame.
- triplewipeass 8y ago
  (1) is a great option to have on this type of ballot because it'll signal that NYers really do want Amazon to do business here. If most people voted to "do nothing", that'd be a strong signal that they just don't care about Amazon.
denzil_correa 8y ago
> 1. Invite Amazon to NYC for free. 2. Invite Amazon to NYC with subsidies. 3. Do nothing. The options you list mentions no implications and therefore, you'd get responses where each individual will vote for what they think the implications are. This might lead to people voting for misleading options(for example, Brexit). One way to incorporate that is to ask for people's feedback on the implications. In such a model, you do not ask the final question but post the down the sets of implications posed as a question. For ex, Q1 : On a scale of 1-5, what do you think about XYZ? etc. The city council can have a discussion about these questions before heading to vote. You then give these questions to the people and solicit answers. Once you get the answers, you compile it and discuss how these answers could be addressed. It's a cardinal sin to reduce complex multi-objective optimization into a simple Yes or No question based on popular vote.

yaya69 8y ago

Waaaah

CzarnyZiutek 8y ago

NYC > AMAZON

the_gastropod 8y ago

This is such gross crony capitalism. It drives me nuts the uncritical repetition that Amazon's going to "bring 25,000 jobs" to NYC. As if the tech industry wasn't already hyper-competitive in NYC. Unemployment for tech workers is nigh non-existent. There are already a surplus of jobs. We don't need this. Google didn't need this for their workforce expansion in NYC. Facebook didn't need it. And hell, Amazon didn't need it for their 5,000 employees already in NYC.

cagenut 8y ago

as if this whole processes hasn't been gross enough, do they think this boot-licking after the fact is going to curry some favor?

cabaalis 8y ago
Probably more a message to some politicians than to amazon. The political divide in this country is insurmountable. Just listen to Ben Shapiro's opinion on events, and then NPR's. Stark, polar opposites. It is impossible for the average American to take an informed position on something in so polarized a climate.
- badfrog 8y ago
  > Probably more a message to some politicians than to amazon. And to donors.
- anth_anm 8y ago
  > Just listen to Ben Shapiro's opinion on events I'd rather shoot myself > and then NPR I'd rather just sit in silence staring at a wall.

libeclipse 8y ago

> pplease sir, can i have some more :(

booleandilemma 8y ago

Signed, the vocal minority.

badfrog 8y ago
Incorrect. > The result: 56 percent of voters statewide approved, while 36 percent didn’t. > In New York City, 58 percent of registered voters backed the plan, while 35 percent were opposed. https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-want-amazons-hq2-in-queens-poll/ https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-want-a...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

temuze 8y ago

Thank you, Fred. The amount of misinformation around this issue has been remarkable. 1) No you can't just say "let's spend that $3B on fixing the subway". This money comes from tax rebates. It means that you only get this $3B to give away when you get more tax revenue. 2) This wasn't some "backroom deal". The NDAs were a stipulation in Amazon's competition meant to prevent bidding wars. If cities could react to other cities, it would have created an escalating race to the bottom. Ironically, Amazon probably did this to avoid bad press. Go figure. 3) This wouldn't have put more strain on the subway. During rush hour, trains to Manhattan are packed, but trains to the outer boroughs are empty. This would have allowed NYC to step away from the high-maintenance hub and spoke model which strains the MTA. Source: the New York State Budget Director's statement https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-budget-director-robert-mujica-regarding-amazon https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/open-letter-new-york-state-... --- Let's do some back of the envelope math. What's 25k (minimum number of jobs) * 150k (the average salary) * 11% (income tax for NY state + NYC)? 412M. That means that $3B would be paid off from new income taxes alone over ~7 years. That's not even considering: - State / city corporate tax - The new taxable income that would go to local businesses - The effect it would have on increasing taxable income for other tech workers in the city So yes - this was still a really good deal.

badfrog 8y ago
The amount of people loudly misunderstanding #1 really frustrates me.
- jhauris 8y ago
  I think calling tax incentives subsidies is really confusing and leads to that misunderstanding. Maybe that's the purpose of using that language?
  - badfrog 8y ago
    Good point. Was it the media who started using the word subsidies for this?

idbentley 8y ago

I just don't understand why this conversation seems to be dominated by financial discussion. The main problem that many NYs had with the Amazon deal was dilution of our culture. Dumping 25,000 high earning employees into a complex and vibrant city is following San Francisco into folly. They probably oversell the economic benefit, and it's pretty foul the way a corporation can push around politicians. But the bottom line is, these jobs wouldn't go to existing New Yorkers in large part, and that makes the economic benefit to New Yorkers thing difficult to reason about.

jpochtar 8y ago
Do you... live in New York? I don't mean to be rude but you say "our" culture can't handle 25,000 high earning employees. 25,000 new high earners would be utterly unnoticed in the sea of Wall St.-ers. Honestly I think it'd improve the high-earner culture here if anything...
- idbentley 8y ago
  I live in Brooklyn. In lower Manhattan they might be unnoticed, but that is not New York. Queens, is not Manhattan. You're talking about a major gentrification event. Can't handle is bad wording, but it would seriously exacerbate the wealth distribution problem here, which is already the worst in the country.

jgowdy 8y ago

It's sad that people sit here and beat their chest about how wrong Amazon is without looking at the other side. Amazon doesn't owe you jobs, tax revenue, or anything else. The discounts are reductions in the amount of money they would owe local and state governments IF they moved their location there. Since they aren't obligated to move their business there, they don't owe you that money. That's not your tax discount money to spend on other things, it's their tax discount money that they no longer potentially owe you. The underlying flaw of all of this is that Amazon should "be a good corporate citizen" (do what we want with their money), that tax credits are made of money otherwise spendable by governments (when in fact they're otherwise spendable by the corporation, because it's their money until they owe the tax debt), and that we should be able to beat and shame billionaires into giving us their money and providing these opportunities. Good luck with that strategy, but I think it's unwise. So while the college students can proudly stand there and talk about how they won with their ideals, the people who would actually benefit from it (families, struggling people who could use additional services paid for by additional tax revenue) are given not the benefits but the warm and fuzzy feeling that the collective nose has been cut off to spite the face.

anth_anm 8y ago
> Amazon doesn't owe you jobs, tax revenue, or anything else. They don't owe anyone jobs. They hire people to do work, they make money off that work. That is how this works. Job creators are not noble or good or generous merely because they create jobs. It is a self-serving act. They owe tax revenue on profits earned. > that we should be able to beat and shame billionaires into giving us their money and providing these opportunities We should be able to do that. Exterminating the billionaire class (by taking their money) would be a great thing for society.
- MockObject 8y ago
  > Exterminating the billionaire class (by taking their money) would be a great thing for society. I suppose a class of actual slaves would be a great thing for society, too. It's easy when you define slaves, or billionaires, as being outside society and therefore subject to depredation. Fortunately, advances in the theory of human rights as extending to all people have put an end to such thinking.

anth_anm 8y ago

A way that works for everyone? Sure. Amazon comes in. They don't get any tax breaks. They do business and make money and pay taxes. NY actually uses those taxes for things people need.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

Question: How much is this computer? Answer: $1186 Question: If I buy 100 of them can you give me an x% discount? That's what Amazon did with the elected NY leaders. If I bring 25,000+ employees that might generate as much as $28 BILLION in taxes, can we get $3 billion in discounts? If we don't get the $3 Billion in rebates you will NOT be getting the $28 Billion in taxes. It was a yes or no.

pteredactyl 8y ago

This is nice. But I don't know why Amazon would want to do business in New York. Or California, for that matter. These states' policymakers are hostile to business in the form of taxes and regulations. Cuomo himself said 'America was never great'.

krapp 8y ago
>These states' policymakers are hostile to business in the form of taxes and regulations. All states collect taxes and have laws and regulations, so I guess they're all "hostile to business." >Cuomo himself said 'America was never great'. I don't see what relevance that should have to Amazon's tax strategy, but if you think Amazon should only do business in pro-Trump areas, you should probably look into Jeff Bezos' politics first.
- pteredactyl 8y ago
  Agreed, all states have taxes. But different states have different policies and regulations. For example, with individuals, Washington State does not charge income tax but has a sales tax. On the other hand, California has a state income tax, along with a sales tax. So you can see, tax policy is not binary. Some states are more favorable for individuals, and by extensions, businesses. - As far as the quoted local politicians comments, it is important to understand their mindset when potentially doing business in their state. For example, I'd want to know if they sounded entitled, naive, or arrogant when it comes to business (or anything for that matter)? Do they think business owes them something for breathing the air, for example? Do they hold a world view where there are bad guys, good guys, and nothing in between? I could go on, but personally, Cuomo's comments (and actions) would make me think twice about doing business in his state.

throwawaysea 8y ago

Let's not forget, that of the $3B in subsidies, only $505M was a capital grant specific to Amazon, itself tied to Amazon investing $3.6B (see https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de-blasio-announce-amazon-selects-long-island-city-new-corporate https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de...). The rest of that $3B figure was from _existing_ programs that are also available to other companies, should they meet the eligibility requirements. The Excelsior program at the NY state level made up $1.2B. The other bits are ICAP and REAP, which are NYC programs. The city projected that Amazon would be eligible for $897M from REAP and $386M from ICAP through 2038. I say 'projected' since AFAIK, these are incrementally granted credits based on what is incrementally delivered by the employer. The city/state projected 107,000 total direct and indirect jobs, over $14 billion in new tax revenue for the State and a net of $13.5 billion in City tax revenue over the next 25 years. And $186 billion in Gross State Product for the New York State economy over the initial 25 years. This was a tremendously positive deal for NY/NYC and despite multiple polls showing majority support among constituents for the deal, it got tanked by a vocal minority of far-left socialist activists/politicians. Governments and companies need to develop a stronger spine, ignore the social media outrage machine, and learn to sift out/ignore loud voices who have the time to engage in a visible/disruptive manner (which incorrectly skews opinion away from silently-held opinions that are equally valid).

shmooth 8y ago

This shit is gd insane Fuck amazon