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The current paradigm in the US was to encourage immigration from the third world and then provide them subsidy for living expenses and making a bigger family. T

The current paradigm in the US was to encourage immigration from the third world and then provide them subsidy for living expenses and making a bigger family. The goal of this appears to me to be about increasing consumption in the US and I would think this enables a much higher level of CO2 emission vs what would be generated under the different economic conditions in their home country.

anovikov 8y ago
But still, people who do so are far outnumbered by those entering middle class in other countries. It's not about migration. Fighting global warming by limiting economic growth is simply not going to work. My idea of a solution to global warming is no solution: accept that the global warming will happen, discover its consequences, and make them a part of economic planning on both government and corporate level. Make people educated about it. That's it.
- akoncius 8y ago
  I also agree that other countries are improving their economic situation and increasing consumption there adds up to global warming, not migration. what regards "no solution" this is so shortsighted that it's even difficult to decide where to start in disagreeing :) it's easy to say "screw it, let's see what happens" but take this angle: let's say EU will make everything to reduce climate change effects, but other regions not. In event of radical climate change people will start migrating to more safe regions, including EU, so EU will pay partially price for those regions who did not do any effort to reduce climate change. I don't want to pay price for sea level rising just because USA wanted to gain some short-term gains. also trading your life safety for economic gains sounds ridiculous.
  - anovikov 8y ago
    But this is what will happen by itself because fighting global warming means little but opening economic opportunities for others - and exploitation of them means MORE global warming. Basically, if Germany introduces a carbon tax and as a result, its industry will become less competitive, its output will fall, it will be displaced by Chinese output (because demand is still there), which is produced with a lot more CO2 output than energy-efficient Germany would produce. So, best way of fighting global warming is just adapting to it. Other method will be world policing, i.e. enforcing worldwide policy for CO2 reduction, so no displacement as i described, happens (subs threat to merchant ships sounds like best way to do it). But it's a bad idea to suggest in this liberal forum :) People migrating to EU because of global warming? Don't give them visas. They arrive on boats? Machinegun the boats, that simple.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      > enforcing worldwide policy for CO2 reduction This is what things like Kyoto were intended to be. > Machinegun the boats This is the kind of thing we executed Nazis for at Nuremberg. It's called a crime against humanity for good reason.
      - growlist 8y ago
        To not tackle population increases is to acquiesce in the suffering of greater numbers of humans as global warming really kicks in. Population control is the kind thing to do.
        anovikov 8y ago
        Population increase is already tackling itself except for the Sub-Saharan Africa where people produce almost no CO2 anyway coz they are dirt poor. It is safe to say that increased consumption decreases reproduction rate by itself simply because people have other things to do.
      - anovikov 8y ago
        Well this is called illegal border crossing. It is a crime and always been a crime. It is meant to be met with lethal force. Border guards, being it land or water, exist exactly for that. Nazis were executed for killing survivors from sunk ships, people in distress, completely unrelated.
oblio 8y ago
I don't think there's any country in Central or Southern America that's a third world country (except for Haiti?). And for me, as an outsider, it seems ridiculous to consider the US as a country of "subsidies for living expenses". Isn't the US notorious as being basically the only developed country without a welfare state? :)
- swebs 8y ago
  >And for me, as an outsider, it seems ridiculous to consider the US as a country of "subsidies for living expenses". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_the_United_S... >Isn't the US notorious as being basically the only developed country without a welfare state? :) The US spends $10,203 per capita on public expenditure. That's dead set with Switzerland ($10,412), not that far behind Finland ($11,858), and much higher than Canada ($7,352). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_of_social_expenditure_on_economic_growth,_public_debt_and_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_of_socia... Glad I could help you become a little less ignorant :)
  - oblio 8y ago
    If it's the same situation as for pharma in the US (the US spends a ton on it, medical expenses are way higher than in most of the world), my "ignorant" comments are still warranted. I've never seen as many homeless people in France or Germany, for example, as I've seen in the US. I have seen fewer even back in Romania. I'm glad for your expenses, but you're not getting your money's worth.
    - mrkstu 8y ago
      A major component of the homeless issue was Supreme Court decisions making it extremely difficult to involuntarily commit mentally ill people into residential treatment and compel taking of medication for their conditions. A good summary can be found at https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/ivc/involuntary-commitment-concepts.html https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/ivc/involuntary-commitment-c... This has led to a spiral self-medicating with alcohol and illegal drugs and of dealing with the mentally ill through the criminal infrastructure or through rampant homelessness. There are other drivers of course, but I believe the vast majority can be traced to the inability of the state to force treatment on those who are obviously ill.

anovikov 8y ago

But still, people who do so are far outnumbered by those entering middle class in other countries. It's not about migration. Fighting global warming by limiting economic growth is simply not going to work. My idea of a solution to global warming is no solution: accept that the global warming will happen, discover its consequences, and make them a part of economic planning on both government and corporate level. Make people educated about it. That's it.

akoncius 8y ago
I also agree that other countries are improving their economic situation and increasing consumption there adds up to global warming, not migration. what regards "no solution" this is so shortsighted that it's even difficult to decide where to start in disagreeing :) it's easy to say "screw it, let's see what happens" but take this angle: let's say EU will make everything to reduce climate change effects, but other regions not. In event of radical climate change people will start migrating to more safe regions, including EU, so EU will pay partially price for those regions who did not do any effort to reduce climate change. I don't want to pay price for sea level rising just because USA wanted to gain some short-term gains. also trading your life safety for economic gains sounds ridiculous.
- anovikov 8y ago
  But this is what will happen by itself because fighting global warming means little but opening economic opportunities for others - and exploitation of them means MORE global warming. Basically, if Germany introduces a carbon tax and as a result, its industry will become less competitive, its output will fall, it will be displaced by Chinese output (because demand is still there), which is produced with a lot more CO2 output than energy-efficient Germany would produce. So, best way of fighting global warming is just adapting to it. Other method will be world policing, i.e. enforcing worldwide policy for CO2 reduction, so no displacement as i described, happens (subs threat to merchant ships sounds like best way to do it). But it's a bad idea to suggest in this liberal forum :) People migrating to EU because of global warming? Don't give them visas. They arrive on boats? Machinegun the boats, that simple.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    > enforcing worldwide policy for CO2 reduction This is what things like Kyoto were intended to be. > Machinegun the boats This is the kind of thing we executed Nazis for at Nuremberg. It's called a crime against humanity for good reason.
    - growlist 8y ago
      To not tackle population increases is to acquiesce in the suffering of greater numbers of humans as global warming really kicks in. Population control is the kind thing to do.
      - anovikov 8y ago
        Population increase is already tackling itself except for the Sub-Saharan Africa where people produce almost no CO2 anyway coz they are dirt poor. It is safe to say that increased consumption decreases reproduction rate by itself simply because people have other things to do.
    - anovikov 8y ago
      Well this is called illegal border crossing. It is a crime and always been a crime. It is meant to be met with lethal force. Border guards, being it land or water, exist exactly for that. Nazis were executed for killing survivors from sunk ships, people in distress, completely unrelated.

oblio 8y ago

I don't think there's any country in Central or Southern America that's a third world country (except for Haiti?). And for me, as an outsider, it seems ridiculous to consider the US as a country of "subsidies for living expenses". Isn't the US notorious as being basically the only developed country without a welfare state? :)

swebs 8y ago
>And for me, as an outsider, it seems ridiculous to consider the US as a country of "subsidies for living expenses". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_the_United_S... >Isn't the US notorious as being basically the only developed country without a welfare state? :) The US spends $10,203 per capita on public expenditure. That's dead set with Switzerland ($10,412), not that far behind Finland ($11,858), and much higher than Canada ($7,352). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_of_social_expenditure_on_economic_growth,_public_debt_and_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Effects_of_socia... Glad I could help you become a little less ignorant :)
- oblio 8y ago
  If it's the same situation as for pharma in the US (the US spends a ton on it, medical expenses are way higher than in most of the world), my "ignorant" comments are still warranted. I've never seen as many homeless people in France or Germany, for example, as I've seen in the US. I have seen fewer even back in Romania. I'm glad for your expenses, but you're not getting your money's worth.
  - mrkstu 8y ago
    A major component of the homeless issue was Supreme Court decisions making it extremely difficult to involuntarily commit mentally ill people into residential treatment and compel taking of medication for their conditions. A good summary can be found at https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/ivc/involuntary-commitment-concepts.html https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/ivc/involuntary-commitment-c... This has led to a spiral self-medicating with alcohol and illegal drugs and of dealing with the mentally ill through the criminal infrastructure or through rampant homelessness. There are other drivers of course, but I believe the vast majority can be traced to the inability of the state to force treatment on those who are obviously ill.